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A couple of your responses to my post didn't seem to fit. Since I am completely inept, I will try to quote these as best I can.
>Ertai wrote:
>I like Siphon. Might need to make it do a lot more damage than it >heals the necro, however, because you can charm a level 120 >mob and never have to regen hp
>I have never been able to charm a level 120 mob. If there is a >level limit for charming then there is no problem here. This is more >an idea for a Necro to be able to keep their hp/mana up durning >a fight.
I have a mort that could charm level 105 mobs from level 105 and let me tell you, they have a LOT of hp to siphon away
>Ertai wrote:
>Petrify looks alright, but it should probably cost a moonstone. 2 >rounds of spell free combat would give anyone time to do >SERIOUS damage.
>Please note Web does NOT require a moonstone. This spell is a >total vs to web. I figured it would have to be tweeked but >remember requiring a moonstone and not the same for Web >defeats the purpose totally. Also the web spell goes for more >rounds than I said here.
How does 2 rounds of no casting even compare with however long it takes you to dispel before you can flee? I can survive a fight without having to flee (as long as it is a close fight) whereas in the same fight, if I had 2 rounds that I was incapacitated I would be destroyed. Think of it in player aspects since this would rarely be used on mobs. Have you ever fought a player that was close to your level/skill level where you have gone for 2 whole rounds without casting any spells? Only in instances where circle would be more helpful and there was no sense of urgency.
I think that a couple of these spells (with more restrictions) would not be detremental to the balance, but again, I have very little knowledge about either class besides what is documented. However, more than that would just cause more problems (and some of these suggestions would put one class over the top even if they were the only ones imp'd)
eRT
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Shadow Walk - I say limit it to the same area you are in, or drain the movement of the necromancer to 1\. Maybe require a moonstone to go between areas.
Tomb Lock & Siphon- I agree, those are a bit much.
Wane - sounds like something ice storm should do (or does).
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Ok, here are more idea for necros:
Soul drain - the necromancer strips the soul from a mob corpse, giving the necro a shield of ethereal energy. With each drain, the shield strengthens, upto the level of the necromancer. The duration of the spell affect should be proportional to the necro's level. Maybe allow this in restricted PK situations, possibly adding one minute to the dead player's death timer.
As an alternative, this could be used to strengthen the existing "shield" spell to a certain degree higher than the caster's level (not the spell affect's level since someone 3x your level could have put shield on you).
Shadow Veil - A flee technique that operates like a flash "momentary darkness" that conceals the direction the necro fled and hides them from "where" for atmost a tick. Makes them (Hidden) for that time as well and doesn't wear off if they move, although anyone with "detect hidden" can see them. Can only be done during combat. All these affects are not guaranteed either. If they recall/gohome/gohall, these affects are canceled immediately.
Feign - yes, remember that? Why not allow necros to feign as any mobs in the area, provided they've been in the area long enough.
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@Ertai:
> A couple of your responses to my post didn't seem to fit. Since I am completely inept, I will try to quote these as best I can.
>
> >Ertai wrote:
>
> I have a mort that could charm level 105 mobs from level 105 and let me tell you, they have a LOT of hp to siphon away
>
> –---------------
>
> Well the best I have done charm wise is a level 90 mob. Dont' know why it is really. Confusion here I think I'm talking "Animate Dead" - Charm here not "Charm Person" spell that's different and is currently with all Mage classes. Also it's limited to undead only and I would not hav it go over level 90 mobs anyway. Does that help?
>
> Wtih Animate Dead if you try to charm and animate a corps over level 80 it will tell you it's too hard for your skill level. I can animate all mobs except for the mapdemon on level 1 POA. When I look at the group none of them go over level 70\. We're only talking 20 more levels here not the whole range.
>
> ------------------
>
> >Ertai wrote:
>
> >Petrify looks alright, but it should probably cost a moonstone. 2 >rounds of spell free combat would give anyone time to do >SERIOUS damage.
>
> >Please note Web does NOT require a moonstone. This spell is a >total vs to web. I figured it would have to be tweeked but >remember requiring a moonstone and not the same for Web >defeats the purpose totally. Also the web spell goes for more >rounds than I said here.
>
> >Have you ever fought a player that was close to your level/skill level where you have gone for 2 whole rounds without casting any spells?
>
> --------------------
>
> All the time when I get nailed. Most of the time they fix it so I can't caste a damn thing for well over 2 rounds. So been there done that hate it. Still I was just trying to make it not "Same as Web" peg a different spell to it. The idea was something to vs web.
>
> ------------------
>
> I think that a couple of these spells (with more restrictions) would not be detremental to the balance, but again, I have very little knowledge about either class besides what is documented. However, more than that would just cause more problems (and some of these suggestions would put one class over the top even if they were the only ones imp'd)
>
> -----------------------
>
> One Class is already over the top that is Wizard. Please look over what they have it is already over powering. When I started as a Necro there was a balance. I pretty much flipped a coin over having Engery Drain or Channel. That was pretty much the difference at the time between Necro and Wizard but now the gap has grown.
>
> Then many of the spells were moved around and Wizards had a ton added. There was talk of coming up with new spells for Necro but it didn't happen instead more was added to Wizards.
>
> There was talk about the Necro Kill spell vs Slit throat and in the end the spell was made less affective. Really Ertai please look over the Wizards and the Necro spells and talk to those of us who are both. There is a big difference and inbalance. In fact look how many players are Necro compared to Wizards. I only know of a few who are Necro right now.
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I'm still up for adding timers to spells instead of reagants to control the balance issue. For example.
Everyone was complaining that you can easily spam heal twice a round. Then they made the casting time twice as long. Now everyone bitches that it takes too long to cast (which it does imo :P). If spells had recovery timers on them, You could cast heal as fast as you could before, but not as often as before. lemme try to do a diagram here…
Legend: R=Round *=casting time "=downtime H=Heal @=spell completion -=time in between rounds.
..R1-------------------R2-------------------R3
...H****@''''''''''''''''''''H*****@'''''''''''''''''
This solves the spam issue and the length issue as well.
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Very tricky, Xavis… subtle but different. I like this idea from a mortal standpoint because it does keep people from spamming heal, but allows them to have a chance at attacks within each round. Not sure how it would be coded, but I like it
eRT
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The heal cast time is just fine as is, it was an excellent change. It's nonsense to have the most potent healing spell also have a short casting time. PvP is best when there is a rhythm to it. Frantic casting due to super short cast times only disrupts this rhythm and encourages spamming. With Xavis' suggestion both people would be doing the same thing every round, casting heal and then using an offensive spell/skill. Do we really want to create a system that encourages this? I don't think many people would find it fun, trying to keep up with that pace. I thought the revamp of pk was to make it more appealing, as well as more balanced.
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I guess I was under the impression that you couldn't use another skill/spell but it would give you a chance to get in your standard attacks. I don't believe we should be able to heal and circle in the same round, but I liked the idea when you could heal, finish the spell, and sit for the rest of the round (disabilitated aside from standard attacks)
Maybe this is exactly what you're talking about, Inimical…?
eRT
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on the issue of a spell then circle. I dont think you should be able to circle directly after a dispel either, especially the way dispel is. Dispel should get some kind of lag added to it as well, until the sanctuary issue is fixed, imo.
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Well hey, that's the beauty of the system Spunky. You can put the recharge time as long as need to compensate for balancing purposes. Heal can still be casted at the quick speed, but it could take you two rounds of combat to recharge it so you can cast again.
And another example I can use to fortify this idea is the kill spell. If the kill spell was revert to it's original strength (cast it when target has no sanc = death, no questions asked) but lengthened the recharge so you could hypothetically only use the spell once per pk battle would be bloody awesome.
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What I'm trying to come by is with a recharge system we can strengthen spells to a level of awesome usefulness, but also restrict them in a way that we don't become **dependant** on them. I.E. Blind, Dispel, Slow.
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You can still fit heal between rounds, but it's not so quick casting that you can do it twice. I must be missing the point or something, because what everyone seems to want is in fact how it is. Not spammable, still usable, I don't see the problem. Let's all take a minute to reflect upon the words of the eminent Thoreau: simplify, simplify, simplify. Complex systems become exponentially more difficult to balance with each new component.
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I really don't see any simple way to deal with balance issues with spells. As of right now, attack spells are nearly useless in a PvP situation. You also have to factor in that this is a text based game. Unlike the MMORPGs where you can factor in distance, objects in the way and all the bells and whistles, we have to compensate using other means necessary.
If we just lengthen the casting time so that it spans over one round and you lose 4 or 5 potential hits, rarely will someone use it. If we shorten the time for casting, people will begin spamming the shizzy out of the spell and it'll probably end up with the damage nerfed to hell making it useless again.
The words of Thoreau: simplify, simplify, simplify. I recall when they catorgorized all things on this earth as (correct me if I'm wrong) Animal, Innanimate and Green. Nice and simple eh? But what about the insects shaped like leaves? What about the plants that eat insects?
What I'm trying to get at is simplicity isn't always the best solution.
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What I don't understand is why do Warlords get almost as many spells as the remort mage and cleric classes. They're a fighter class. They shouldn't get spells!!
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A few people have suggested to me an idea i like concerning skills. I've talked with Inimical a little bit about this : have skill and spell proficiency groups which boost your proficiency in the skills and spells in that group. so for exampel there would be 6 groups per class, and out of those you could choose 2 of them.
This would encourage diversity amongst characters a great deal I think, as people could choose to specialize in certain skills and spells. There is also a lot of opporotunity to screw things up, so we are going to think about really damn well before we actually implement anything. Just thought I'd give you a sneak peek at the future. We're also going to remove skills and spells from people who shouldn't have them, probably not next game update but the update after that; also, the dispel magic and sanctuary issue will also be resolved, possibly next reboot.
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~~@Syn:~~
> A few people have suggested to me an idea i like concerning skills. I've talked with Inimical a little bit about this : have skill and spell proficiency groups which boost your proficiency in the skills and spells in that group. so for exampel there would be 6 groups per class, and out of those you could choose 2 of them.
>
> This would encourage diversity amongst characters a great deal I think, as people could choose to specialize in certain skills and spells. There is also a lot of opporotunity to screw things up, so we are going to think about really damn well before we actually implement anything. Just thought I'd give you a sneak peek at the future. We're also going to remove skills and spells from people who shouldn't have them, probably not next game update but the update after that; also, the dispel magic and sanctuary issue will also be resolved, possibly next reboot.
Its not so much the dispel magic and sanc thing its just the problem with sanc that makes dispel magic good so ppl cast it so if u change dispel magic to not dispel all the time in pvp then i dont thin sanc needs to be changed, or the other way around… change so sanc doesnt matter as much then dispel magic doesnt really need to changed
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With titans able to wield two-handed weapons in one hand, do they really need titanic attack?
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As a non-titan, I am partial to titannic attack. It is a defining skill similar to minotaur's charge or slayer's shift.
I also like the fact that they can dual wield a 2-handed weapon.
If you're looking for something to balance titans (I'm not sure if we are or not… Inimical?) can I suggest maybe making dual wielding 2-handed weapons hurt dex or str? I believe we need to make it so not everyone has every stat maxed out. This will make people really decide what is important to them and possibly diversify the game. However, this may be hell to balance;I haven't really thought it through.
eRT
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Syn, you said that there was something in place for checking to see if people had skills they were not supposed to have. Is there anything to check to see if they are missing skills they should have?
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Here is my 2 cents with a focus on PK. I am cutting out most of the skills you can get from other classes/ones you get from eq just to point out the usefull skills/spell imbalances:
None of the mage classes have counterspell.
Wizards are overpowered. Necros need the most help, but sorcerors need it too. Don't just look at number of spells, look at how many are usefull and can be duplicated by other effects.
sorc gets silence and slow as unique (channel also but nobody ever uses it because they don't run out of mana)
wizards on the other hand get afterburn, roomshield, starflare, dispel room, nexus, gate, locate object, entrap, and light shroud
necro gets feign, kill, and energy drain
For clerics:
witch and monk both get counterspell
druid: cosmic blast (offensive spells suck), enchant armor and weapon were nerfed, and brew/scribe were greatly reduced in effectiveness also…so basically nothing
witch doctor: no clue, never been one
monk: frenzy, dirt kick, reverie
For thiefs:
assassin: slit, crossbow, envenom
rogue: circle
bard: never been one
Fighters:
Marauder: 4th attack, dirt kick, intimidate
Gladiator: circle
Paladin: smite
Not familiar with remort classes besides my own, only remorted once.
Alchemist - with potions/scrolls weakened really nothing for this class
Sage
Judge: all remorts can naturally detect evil/good now, so skill is useless
Mob lore: not very useful
Deception: %chance to evade backstab, circle, etc... (rarely seen it work)
Class perm detect hidden (often found on eq)
All the remort thieves classes need work
Crusder - holy sword and shield are nice, but can't compare to the other classes skills. Increased quest rewards are helpful, but longterm everyone maxes anyways. +25% damage with exotic, not many exotic weapons that deal decent damage even with bonus
That is my little spiel (sp) about what is wrong with the classes I took. When I took them they were awesome classes, but with tweaks to skills/spells, shuffling around who had what, and adding in new skills/spells they are quite lacking.
Not sure if it is just the specific combo of classes that I took that collectively cause me problems, or if they are just individually crappy. Would like to hear from anyone else who went druid/sorc/rogue/gladiator/sage/alchemist/crusader. (either that same combo just individual classes)
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Sages are supposed to be the wisest characters around. We can use mob lore to examine creatures and see there strengths and weaknesses. So here is my idea for a new skill.
Once you have used mob lore on a creature, from that point forward you get some type of bonus while fighting that creature such as +dr, +hr, +ac, etc…
It could be a small bonus and last forever (keeping track in pfile of which mobs you have used mob lore on), or a larger bonus and last just till the end of the fight.
