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~~@Inimical:~~
> **1\. Fix all characters to have only the skills, spells, and stats they were intended to have.**
I have a bit of a problem with this one and would like to see one exception here. Old School players.
Most of us who are OSP didn't get those extra spells and skills by a bug or goof of the game we earned them at the time. The Imps later made changes and implimented them to anyone creating a new player. I don't think any OSP should loose their earned uniqueness mainly because they have don't nothing wrong it's just the system has changed.
Otherwise I agree the buggy players after Remort was started should be gone over and those spells and skills they should not have be taken away.
Racially still keep the OSP as well since they help to give the game a rich history. Pretty much the rest you have said I agree with to the most part.
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Essentially every mmorpg style game that includes a pvp aspect has a group that believes in level restricted pk. Almost none of these games actually employ this philosophy however, because it is inherently flawed. From an rp perspective, there is no rational justification. I'm not one to base ideas and suggests on rp value however, in game mechanics and balance are the better way to judge. Level restricted pvp is abusable, especially in an enviroment like this. It allows characters below whatever "threshold levels" you have set to walk invincibly through pk areas, providing them free access to the items, mobs, etc. in them. It places emphasis on level camping, encouraging players to stay at the high end of these thresholds for extended periods of time and disrupting the flow of the game. It opens opportunities to set dastardly traps, such as having a low level character enter a pk area where someone higher level is or may come to, that character then puts up roomshields, ice storms, infernos, etc etc to trap and injure the other player all the while being immune to attack. Then a higher level character can enter and easily dispatch the victim. You believe this change will make pk safer for you, in reality it will be used as a tool to kill with impunity, just like the issue with social.
The prospect of being able to participate in church pk even though you are not in a pk church or individually toggled is also a terrible one. The premise here is only a watered down form of hiding in social; a way for people to be immune to threats while still being able to kill others. Your views are hypocritical it seems, you don't want others to be able to use these tactics against you but you'd like to use it against them. What will stop people from gathering armies of non pkers in their group so that they can go attack another pker? Those who choose a life of pk know what they're getting into. They will be attacked, they will be killed. Involving non pkers in pk battles is unfair.
Allowing **anyone** to have skills/spells/whatever that their modern counterpart does not have is a cheat against the newer players, and a definitive unbalancing factor. The only just way is to treat everyone the same, favoritism and balance do not make good bedfellows.
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Well in inspecting the code I realised two things. The first was that I hadn't enabled the dam reduction for PK combat for ranged weapons (meaning a player would get hurt more with a ranged weapon than they should normally get hurt). The second was that it should probably take a longer time to fire in combat, so I adjusted this.
~~@RedRaven:~~
> Ataraxia avg dam 350
>
> 350 * 1.5 (for pk) = 525
>
> 525 * 2 (titan vs evil) = 1050
>
> 1050 *1.25 (holy damage) = 1312.5
>
> 1312.5 * 1.25 (fire damage)= 1640.625
>
> 1640.625 * 7 (possible hits for a Titan) = 11,484.375
>
> Ok, not quit 14K, but that was done in my head. And that is with average hits.
>
> Half that for sanc = 5742.1875
>
> That is still 1000+ more hp than I have as a maxxed Fully equipped 120 remorted Fiend.
>
> Now remove the 1.5 for pk.
>
> 350 * 2 (titan vs evil) = 700
>
> 700 * 1.25 (holy damage) = 875
>
> 875 * 1.25 (fire damage) = 1093.75
>
> 1093.75 * 7 (possible hits for a titan) = 7656.25
>
> 7656.25 / 2 (for sanc) = 3828.125
>
> Still an outrageous amount. But Survivable for more than one round.
>
> Even adjusting and saying only half your attacks land.
>
> That is almost 2900hp per round with the pk bonus. And just over 1900 without. With the bonus that is 2 rounds and out for the vamp.
in regards to this analysis though realise that holy fire is only holy damage, not holy and fire damage. Also where is the *2 titan vs evil bonus that you are getting? it's not in the code. Also realise that 350 avg is a very hard to pin down figure, it's very unlikely that you'll ever get exactly 350 damage, it's just a mean of the min possible damage and the max possible damage. Here's my count, just so everyone sees what went through in the code right before i made most recent tweaks :)
Base damage: 350, no miss
350 * (11/10) = 385
(11/10ths multiplier if the attack wears no shield)
385 ( 1.1 ) = 423
( holy weapon vs evil = 10% boost )
(magical sharpness gives possible boost but we'll neglect that here since i'm not sure if ataraxia is sharp or not)
(Slayers would then get +10% more damage vs evil from race boosting it to 465, but we're talking about titans here)
(If they have the damage relic it's +10% more)
(If they have an exotic weapon and crusader it's +10% more)
(If the material is silver, wood or iron and you're vuln to those it's +10%)
(If they have holy wrath skill(slayer) it's 10% more, but this happens at most 33% of hits even with 100% holy wrath)
(If they have enhanced damage its boosted slightly, but everyone essentially has this skill)
(highwayman get backstab boost)
(Then when the weapon type is fire, holy etc and you are vuln to this it's an extra 20% boost, resistance is a 25% drop in damage, immunity is a drop to 0 damage)
So as you can see it's possible to boost 350 to 600-700 but not higher.
For now I have disabled the following :
+10% for good vs evil or vice versa damage
double holy damage (+10% twice) for slayers,
and dropped vulns such as fire cold etc to 20% instead of 25%
as well as dropping holy defences (light shroud and avatar shield) to 10% from 25% damage reduction. I haven't modified sanctuary yet… Let's see how it looks.
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damage reduction is good, but good align is still getting all the bonuses ..we're gettin nothin
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~~@Spunky:~~
> This is an exact copy of my last post.
>
> vamps really arent all the screwed up if you ask me, the sun thing is a little lame, and the holy damage that they take is insane. I still say remove all the holy aspects from the game until there's something to help balance it. I dont mean to pick on arkain like everyone else, but im not even a vamp and im still gettin owned by that holy crap. Here's a log, enjoy the presentation of insanity…
>
> Keep in mind that i had sanc on during this beatdown session..
>
> SpuNK! <2673hp 5001sp 3297mv 173
>
> Someone's holy fire devastates you.
>
> Someone's holy fire MUTILATES you!
>
> With amazing agility you swerve someone's attack.
>
> You parry someone's attack.
>
> You parry someone's attack.
>
> You nimbly backflip away from someone's attack.
>
> Your slash mauls someone.
>
> Your slash mauls someone.
>
> Your slash mauls someone.
>
> Someone dodges your attack.
>
> Your pierce devastates someone.
>
> SpuNK! <2673hp 5001sp 3297mv 173
>
> Someone circles around behind you.
>
> Someone's circle MANGLES you!
>
> SpuNK! <746hp 5001sp 3296mv 173
>
> Someone's holy fire *** DEMOLISHES *** you!
>
> You sure are BLEEDING!
>
> You stumble around blindly!
>
> Despite your attempts to move, the webs hold you in place.
>
> PANIC! You couldn't escape!
>
> You parry someone's attack.
>
> Someone's holy fire does UNSPEAKABLE things to you!
>
> You sure are BLEEDING!
>
> You stumble around blindly!
>
> Despite your attempts to move, the webs hold you in place.
>
> PANIC! You couldn't escape!
>
> You parry someone's attack.
>
> You nimbly backflip away from someone's attack.
>
> With amazing agility you swerve someone's attack.
>
> Your slash mauls someone.
>
> Your slash decimates someone.
>
> Someone parries your attack.
>
> Someone nimbly backflips away from your attack.
>
> Someone parries your attack.
>
> I was silence/blind at the time but ill guarantee you that's arkain.
>
> Anyway, you all know im not a whiner...USUALLY..but as you can see ..a circle taking me from 2673 hp to 749 is a biiiit much. With that kind of damage added to silence=not being able to heal, i, nor anyone who has a holy vuln stands a chance in hell.
no one period can stand a chance in hell against silence, not just evil chars
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~~@Inimical:~~
> **1\. Fix all characters to have only the skills, spells, and stats they were intended to have.**
>
> Every experienced player of this game knows about this problem, most of us are the beneficiaries of it as well. Players often end up with things they should not have. For example, me. I somehow have a racial max of 22 intelligence and 23 dexterity. According to the help files those should be 20 and 21 respectively. I have a first class alt that has the full spell list of an illusionist. The notorious whipping boy of Sentience, Arkain, is a wizard who has the benefit of silence.:
and i have web… oooo that must mean something.. im not a wiz im a sorc maybe?
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In response to Arkain's post: I beg to differ. One CAN survive silence. If you have potions and scrolls, high physical skills, and/or have been a bard, you CAN survive silence. I've done this before, though it was a long long time ago- Granted the fight was with a third classer (don't remember who exactly) but I was slienced at the beginning, and I managed to beat him. It took a bit of work, but I beat him. If you go into battle prepared enough, you can beat silence.
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~~@Arkain:~~
> ~~@Spunky:~~
>
> > This is an exact copy of my last post.
> >
> > vamps really arent all the screwed up if you ask me, the sun thing is a little lame, and the holy damage that they take is insane. I still say remove all the holy aspects from the game until there's something to help balance it. I dont mean to pick on arkain like everyone else, but im not even a vamp and im still gettin owned by that holy crap. Here's a log, enjoy the presentation of insanity…
> >
> > Keep in mind that i had sanc on during this beatdown session..
> >
> > SpuNK! <2673hp 5001sp 3297mv 173
> >
> > Someone's holy fire devastates you.
> >
> > Someone's holy fire MUTILATES you!
> >
> > With amazing agility you swerve someone's attack.
> >
> > You parry someone's attack.
> >
> > You parry someone's attack.
> >
> > You nimbly backflip away from someone's attack.
> >
> > Your slash mauls someone.
> >
> > Your slash mauls someone.
> >
> > Your slash mauls someone.
> >
> > Someone dodges your attack.
> >
> > Your pierce devastates someone.
> >
> > SpuNK! <2673hp 5001sp 3297mv 173
> >
> > Someone circles around behind you.
> >
> > Someone's circle MANGLES you!
> >
> > SpuNK! <746hp 5001sp 3296mv 173
> >
> > Someone's holy fire *** DEMOLISHES *** you!
> >
> > You sure are BLEEDING!
> >
> > You stumble around blindly!
> >
> > Despite your attempts to move, the webs hold you in place.
> >
> > PANIC! You couldn't escape!
> >
> > You parry someone's attack.
> >
> > Someone's holy fire does UNSPEAKABLE things to you!
> >
> > You sure are BLEEDING!
> >
> > You stumble around blindly!
> >
> > Despite your attempts to move, the webs hold you in place.
> >
> > PANIC! You couldn't escape!
> >
> > You parry someone's attack.
> >
> > You nimbly backflip away from someone's attack.
> >
> > With amazing agility you swerve someone's attack.
> >
> > Your slash mauls someone.
> >
> > Your slash decimates someone.
> >
> > Someone parries your attack.
> >
> > Someone nimbly backflips away from your attack.
> >
> > Someone parries your attack.
> >
> > I was silence/blind at the time but ill guarantee you that's arkain.
> >
> > Anyway, you all know im not a whiner...USUALLY..but as you can see ..a circle taking me from 2673 hp to 749 is a biiiit much. With that kind of damage added to silence=not being able to heal, i, nor anyone who has a holy vuln stands a chance in hell.
>
> no one period can stand a chance in hell against silence, not just evil chars
actually you can withstand silence, i beat redraven in pk silenced and blind using bash..but with that kind of damage you cant
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~~@Elmah:~~
> In response to Arkain's post: I beg to differ. One CAN survive silence. If you have potions and scrolls, high physical skills, and/or have been a bard, you CAN survive silence. I've done this before, though it was a long long time ago- Granted the fight was with a third classer (don't remember who exactly) but I was slienced at the beginning, and I managed to beat him. It took a bit of work, but I beat him. If you go into battle prepared enough, you can beat silence.
For someone who hasnt played the game for a while you think you know everything, you cant even quaff or use a scroll while blind… only chance u have is to quaff a cancellation potion b4 the person blinds you, which is damn near impossible to get it off
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hrm… the change made pk extreamly boring again, fights last for ever... i think heal needs to be longer so only 1 cast inbetween rounds, but then that would make hard mobs damn near impossible.. so maybe just for pk u can only heal once inbetween rounds or i think have all damage be higher so u cant just sit and spam heal until the other persons mana runs out, its the same way as b4 the changes.. lemme know what you guys think
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~~@Inimical:~~
> You believe this change will make pk safer for you, in reality it will be used as a tool to kill with impunity, just like the issue with social.
That is not what I see at all. I never thought to every make safer for me in any way I'm over 120 and I takes my chances. It's what we all see some 120 killing off low level players for kicks to up their so call numbers. I don't see it would make it easy for anyone to just walk in to a pk area and take stuff. There are people just the same level looking for it too you know. As for the other that didn't not ever cross my mind. There are ways to abuse all systems anyone suggests. Right now the system is extreamly unfair to the lower levels and we have all seen some high level player hound newbies right out of the game. So what do you suggest?
~~@Inimical:~~
> The prospect of being able to participate in church pk even though you are not in a pk church or individually toggled is also a terrible one. A way for people to be immune to threats while still being able to kill others. Your views are hypocritical it seems, you don't want others to be able to use these tactics against you but you'd like to use it against them. What will stop people from gathering armies of non pkers in their group so that they can go attack another pker? Those who choose a life of pk know what they're getting into. They will be attacked, they will be killed. Involving non pkers in pk battles is unfair.
What? I never said the non-pkers would be able to kill a pker in a non-pk room. I only said it's damn stupid to be in a group and sit there doing nothing while you watch a member of your group get killed. And having a member of your group attacked prevents the rest of us to do much until he fight is over.
As was pointed out to me today. If that same person was formed with NPC's well no one complains. They can have charmed NPC's help them easy.
I never talked about church at all how did that get in here?
~~@Inimical:~~
> Allowing **anyone** to have skills/spells/whatever that their modern counterpart does not have is a cheat against the newer players, and a definitive unbalancing factor. The only just way is to treat everyone the same, favoritism and balance do not make good bedfellows.
So, what you want is all the older players to pay for playing the game in the past. We all have to reset everytime there is a change by your standards. The only way to do what you want is to make everyone every time there is a change made to restart their player. I don't think anyone would like that happening.
It's not cheating and I'm sure all the older players object to be accused of it. We have done nothing wrong period.
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Someone mentioned that Drow/Shade needed something. I'm putting this in as a suggestion for Drow and Wraith, the remort of Lich. Immunity to blindness. Why? Wraiths don't have much of eyes for one thing. Drow are accustomed to seeing in the dark.
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~~@Elmah:~~
> Someone mentioned that Drow/Shade needed something. I'm putting this in as a suggestion for Drow and Wraith, the remort of Lich. Immunity to blindness. Why? Wraiths don't have much of eyes for one thing. Drow are accustomed to seeing in the dark.
With the way pk is now.. drows are the best race for pk, they have mana just to sit and heal while the other person runs outta mana and u guys all say swerve sucks but it helps alot i think i barley hit spunky 2-3 times a round outta 7 attacks.. most ppl i get 3-4 hits a round
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~~@Elmah:~~
> Someone mentioned that Drow/Shade needed something. I'm putting this in as a suggestion for Drow and Wraith, the remort of Lich. Immunity to blindness. Why? Wraiths don't have much of eyes for one thing. Drow are accustomed to seeing in the dark.
Drow see in the dark with infravision. This would be more of a question as to whether blindness completely disables eyes, or disables eyes from picking up conventional light. If it only stops conventional light, then people could just cast infravision on themselves to get around that. Wouldn't work for drow, in my opinion.
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You're making some pretty big exaggerations that I don't feel are necessary for me to directly respond to. Please do not take my post as a personal offense, the subject of pk balance often gets people worked up but game mechanics are best viewed in a logical manner. My points are valid. If your suggestions were to be imp'd, I assure you those scenarios I laid out would happen. Ideas are great things, and this sort of open forum allows us to examine them for potential flaws. Consider it constructive criticism.
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Immunity to blindness is far too strong to give anyone, ever.
I do agree with Arkain (the wizard with silence? the sorcerer with roomshield? who knows!) that heal should be examined closely. 2 per round makes outhealing damage in pk too easy, but some mobs out there do such ridiculous amounts of damage that they would be completlely insurivivable without 2x heal every round. Maybe the those mobs that hit so fantastically hard should be toned down to compensate for a longer cast time.
Another potential issue related to healing is the way defenses work. It's possible to spam heal and cast over round after round doing it while your defenses continue to be effective. Either a reduced chance of defenses firing while casting, or possibly even no chance should be considered. A check vs dexterity and/or intelligence could be made.
The changes made to potions were excellent, scrolls still pose a problem however. Spells over a certain sp cost can't be scribed as it is now, it would be more effective to simply develop a list of spells that cannot be scribed. Primary targets of this ban would be:
*Silence
*Roomshield
*Spell Trap
*Spell Deflection
*Kill
Some spells are questionable, they aren't terribly overpowering but they do give some substantial help to classes who normally couldn't have them. Some of these would be:
*Web
*Ensnare
*Holy Sword/Shield
*Wither
*Spell Shield
Through the use of druid alts or other players, it's possible to enter pk with virtually every spell in the game at your disposal. This ban would encourage the individuality some people cherish, and go one step further to keep players to the bounds of their class. It also will address the issue of some "super scrolls" like silence, blindness or blindness, spell deflection. Notice that almost no defensive or healing spells are listed, nor any utility spells such as cloak of guile or detect invis.
My final point in this diatribe is in relation to summon. Some players find it prudent to summon anyone they can to the non pk room in the First Born's Tomb in Aethilforge, which is of course roomshielded and withered to get them to flee into cpk. Nosum is fine, and most experienced players will realize that they should keep it on always. Newer players are much more succeptible to falling for this cowardly trick, and with their best interests in mind I suggest a Yes/No prompt when someone attempts to summon you.
````
Lamepker is trying to summon you! Do you wish to allow this? (Y/N)
````
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Okay, I want to go off-topic here for a moment, and make a comment about Inimical. No, not a flame ;) I think Inimical makes some GREAT suggestions here, and he seems to really know what he's talking about. I think we should all pay attention to what he's saying.
Now, back on topic. I like the idea for the prompt confirming the summon. It seems kinda lame, but I do agree it's somewhat necesary. I think perhaps this could be something you could toggle off, but it is on by default, and automatically turns on each time you log on.
Secondly, I agree that immunity to blindness is a bit strong… So scratch that idea.
I also kind of like the ban on scribing certain spells.
Keep these ideas flowing.
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~~@Inimical:~~
> My final point in this diatribe is in relation to summon. Some players find it prudent to summon anyone they can to the non pk room in the First Born's Tomb in Aethilforge, which is of course roomshielded and withered to get them to flee into cpk. Nosum is fine, and most experienced players will realize that they should keep it on always. Newer players are much more succeptible to falling for this cowardly trick, and with their best interests in mind I suggest a Yes/No prompt when someone attempts to summon you.
> ````
> Lamepker is trying to summon you! Do you wish to allow this? (Y/N)
> ````
First of all, if you arent pk, wither doesnt effect you and if your not pk and someone roomshields next to cpk u can just walk right out.. and to stop ppl from doing this there is nosum so just have nosum on and theres nothing ppl can do so a summon yes/no propmt is not needed
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I think most of us know why you oppose this idea.
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~~@Inimical:~~
> I think most of us know why you oppose this idea.
Indeed…
