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Well, would the alignment restrictions remain in place? Ie, would wizards be good and neutral only? I mean, wasn't that only for the class->subclass system?
Also, the subclasses would need to be looked at closely and PROPERLY balanced so not one single subclass has too much power. Otherwise, you'd have people choosing wizard+sorceror and having so much power it's pathetic. PK would be an ever bigger joke than it is now.
That's my two cents.
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Also, I'd like to see hp modifiers for the subclasses taken.
Something like:
+50 hp, -75 mana, +25 stamina for each warrior class
+25 hp, +25 mana, -50 stamina for each cleric class
-50 hp, +75 mana, -25 stamina for each mage class
+25 hp, -50 mana, +25 stamina for each thief class
Just examples, but you get the idea. Gives a bit more variety in stats so everyone doesn't end up the same.
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it sounds like a good idea but…would people who have already put years of work into their char completely LOSE everything they've already worked their asses off for?
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* You wouldnt lose any hp, mana, etc from switching subclasses. the only thing you would lose is the stuff specific to that subclass (skills, spells and possibly the +2 stat bonuses)
* Nobody would have to switch or be compelled to. I.e. you wouldn't lose anything (except skills that you wern't supposed to have in the first place, like some of the wizards having silence and what not).
Xev, I can definitely see your point. However keep in mind that this is somewhat self balancing in a way… That is you can go 2 mage classes, but you HAVE to give up a cleric, a thief, or a warrior altogether, and it would also limit your choice of remort subclasses (the remort class limits would still be in place).
I don't know if we'd have align restrictions still. I doubt they would be as stringent. I'm not too sure at this point :P
Once again keep in mind this is just an idea for discussion. I'm not saying we're going to add it, I just wanted to hear some (civil) discusison about its pros and cons. So please refrain from freaking out at possible bad implications... just list them here so we can look them over.
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i wasnt really freaking out, just wanted to know :D
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I think this would be great and could allow for more specialized characters.. only two things.
I agree with Ith that stat bonuses for classes would be really good. Although I think I'd change the numbers a tad, it would also help my second point a lot.
Sort of in line with that, perhaps characters should be a bit more proficient at what they go multiple classes for? i.e. a person who goes 3 warrior classes could do more damage than someone who only went 1 and 3 mage classes. Because the skills from warrior classes especially overlap greatly, and I'd really enjoy making a character who was like a highly-trained combat specialist. I mean, a person who has had training in 2 or 3 different types of combat should be able to do more damage than someone who has only learned one. In the same vein, someone who goes 2-3 mage classes should cast much more consistently and perhaps have a few spells be more potent, and a person who goes 2-3 thieves should be able to steal much easier, quicker, and from higher-level victims.
Addendum: If this was implemented, I think I'd actually make an alt. Yes, __I__ would actually make an alt.. a scary thought, but possible.
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And with this you could make more specialized parties to complete more specialized quests. Have a party with a thief, a mage ..one character of each class ..to accomplish one task. It would be nifty
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I really like this idea, but the problem I see is that many of the skills/spells are overlapped by classes. If more of them were specific to just one class instead of all classes it would be worth it to give up a class.
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I sincerely want this to be implemented ASA-freaking-P. Syn, if you need any help coding or anything, or any help with balancing or testing stuff, I would really like to help in any way possible. I do have a little experience with C and C++.. though unfortunately I know the game's in C and my C++ stuff is useless there.
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I have suggested something like this for years. The only exception I see is the lost of practices. If people could be credited for the practices that would be good.
I also agree that the cross over spells and skills need to be taken out and the sub-classes made much more solid. Still the classes do need to be worked on and several brought up to snuff.
I would love to see someone go all warrior or mage but also to balance the two put in a VULNERABILITY/RESISTANCE system. If you go too much to one class your going to suffer a shift in the balance. If you go all warrior you have a % of vulnerablity to magic and for a mage you have a % of vulnerablities to weapons. Well you get the idea. If you keep to a balance of sub-classes your Vul/Res are milder.
It would be nice to see all the combos and give them titles. I would gladly do up charts for it all. Grin
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I think instead of the vulnerability/resist system you suggest, which could be quite viable, a system like I suggested before would be better.. it's somewhat the opposite; if you go more than one of a type of class, you get stronger in that profession… for more explanation, refer to my earlier post.
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~~@Darigaaz:~~
> I think instead of the vulnerability/resist system you suggest, which could be quite viable, a system like I suggested before would be better.. it's somewhat the opposite; if you go more than one of a type of class, you get stronger in that profession… for more explanation, refer to my earlier post.
Still if you don't have or are limited in one profession there should be some kind of vulnerablity. If a person goes all warrior they are not (other than with weapons and potions) going to have much defence against someone casting magic.
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How long has the current mage, theif, etc thing been working? Yeah it does limmit a lot of stuff but it helps make the game more balanced, I think some classes are a little too screwed up and need fixing, such as the necro, and i think there should be hand to hand weapons like iron knuckles etc. But over all the system we have now helps create balance.
The warrior classes are balanced, they make it hard to chose because they all have good qualities.
Mage classes are kinfa favored to druids for the enchant ability from what i am seeing, but some people still branch off.
Sorcerred and Wizards are good but other than drain life and if you want to be nice the resorect spell, necros need some work from what i see.
And I don't really go to far into the thief classes but bards have some dealdy songs, and at an early level they can REALLY do some damage fast with the dispel song. I ahve never used them though so I don't know how they work.
In conclusion I think that sytem works and I like it the way it is.
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I also think the current system works relatively well and certainly isn't __bad__ now. However, the way it is, __everyone__ has __everything__; everyone has heal, everyone has blind, everyone has all 4 types of classes and we're all very similar in skill sets. I want to see characters get specialized in one area. This allows for much more diversity, and adds vastly more, I think, fun to the game. Just think if in real life everyone was the same, or at least like 80-90% the same; life would be absurdly boring.
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I think the response has been positive so far. This has pretty deep implications, so I'm not going to implement it until I'm ready (i.e. I'm not going to work it into this next update, but I will definitely look at implementing it thereafter). I'm polishing up the new version and it's looking better and better. Thank you all for your feeback.
Dari, I agree with the need for variety. I think it's really bland when everyone has heal/blind etc- I think the complexity that would arise from having truly diverse class choices would be much better for game dynamics and PK as a whole.
I've gotten the feedback I need on this topic so far, so I'm gonna un-sticky it but leave it open in case anyone wants to add anything else. I'll dig it back up when I start working on this, which won't be for a little while… but it's still open for discussion.
In the meantime please comment on my other post about mage spells 8)
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If subclass changes are going to be made, I think that there would need to be an adjustment to skills. A three class warrior should have an advantage over an all single class person. First class warrior should see easy to use weapons such as dagger, sword, staff and exotic. I say exotic because it really could mean just anything you pick up and use as a weapon. Be given dodge, second attack and other minor skills, save the magical items usage. This sort of treatment should used across all classes. A one class mage casting fireballs and such just doesn't make sense to me. Or a first class thief blackjacking and slitting people.
As stated somewhere else, I have always been a proponent of giving hidden skills and spells to the specified class. For example, a third class cleric could gain a spell called heaven's wrath, that would not be a known skill until they reach the right level and class requirement. Or disguise for the four class person, which would in effect be a shift type skill. They could disguise themselves to be a mob of the area they are currently in. Due to the generalization of their skills, they are better adept at being able mimic their surroundings.
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I didn't see anyone mention to rp factor about all this. If you think about it like you said everyone has all four classes as it is now. You and a friend play and one could solely be a spellcaster whereas the other solely a warrior/thief classes and it would make interesting forms and add a little bit or a lot to the playing experience. I think it would encourage people to form. After all someone who is all mage or warrior is not going to go kill some supermobs solo with just one set of classes. I don't know if i explained it right but I tihnk you guys understand. Just think of the rp it could encourage
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This is by no means complete, balanced, anatomically correct or anything like that. It is meant to display what I had meant from my previous post. Some adjustments were made as stated. It is also based on that there will still be three classes per class, with an open ended fourth.
feign - This skill I took away from classes because I feel that it should be more of a vampire or lich skill. I could see it as a thief skill
healing hands - This skill I took from mage class since the help file says it is a cleric spell
light shroud - Due to their holiness, I took this from the mage class as well and gave it to cleric
enchant armor - Being as they are good with the arcane, mages should naturally get this
enchant weapon - See enchant armor
enchant artifact - Not a spell, but should be for mages. Allows them to enchant jewelry and artifacts. Third class spell.
scrolls - Due to their magical nature, clerics and mages get this early. Thieves, after having spent time around such things, pick it up late in their career.
wands - Too magical for anyone but mages to understand how to use.
staves - Given to clerics and mages for their arcane abilities.
recall - remove the move cost from word of recall and leave it on recall
[global skills]:
hand to hand
recall
single weapon style
[mage skills]:
First class:
armor
burning hands
cancellation
chill touch
colour spray
dagger
faerie fire
infravision
magic missile
quarterstaff
scrolls
shield
shocking grasp
stone skin
weaken
Second class:
acid blast
blindness
charm person
control weather
death grip
dispel magic
earthquake
energy drain
entrap
fireball
fireproof
fly
giant strength
haste
lightning bolt
locate object
lore
inferno
invisibility
pass door
sleep
staves
summon
wands
Third class:
afterburn
animate dead
chain lightning
channel
dispel room
electrical barrier
gate
improved invisibility
kill
mass invis
nexus
raise dead
room shield
silence
slow
starflare
summon
web
[cleric skills]:
First class:
armor
bless
cause serious
continual light
create food
create rose
create water
cure serious
detect hidden
detect magic
dodge
fireproof
flail
mace
meditation
quarterstaff
refresh
scrolls
spear
underwater breathing
Second class:
brew
call lightning
cause critical
create spring
cure blindness
cure critical
cure disease
cure poison
detect invis
dispel evil
dispel good
earthquake
flamestrike
fly
identify
kicking
lore
martial arts
reverie
scribe
skull
staves
stone skin
Third class:
blindness
calm
catch
control weather
cosmic blast
counterspell
curse
deep trance
demonfire
dirt kicking
enchant armor
enchant weapon
frenzy
harm
heal
healing hands
holy word
light shroud
mass healing
plague
poison
remove curse
sanctuary
summon
third eye
word of recall
[thief skills]:
First class:
blackjack
dagger
dodge
enhanced damage
hide
pick lock
scan
sword
Second class:
acrobatics
backstab
crossbow
detect traps
haggle
peek
sneak
steal
Third Class:
circle
envenom
hunt
lore
second attack
slit throat
[warrior skills]:
First class:
axe
bash
dagger
dodge
fast healing
kick
mace
second attack
spear
sword
Second class:
archery
bow
dirt kicking
enhanced damage
polearm
rescue
shield and weapon style
shield block
third attack
two-handed weapon style
whip
Third class:
circle
disarm
dual wield
exotic
fourth attack
intimidate
mount and weapon style
parry
scrolls
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Personally, I don't feel being able to go multiple mage classes would work well. It would give people the option of choosing their classes better, but it could also make out for some really shitty characters too, and then the people would just complain about that. I went these classes and no cure blind! how could this be!
I'll hafta throw in a no vote for this one. The 4 class idea has worked well so far.
Maybe make specializing in a certain field part of the Guru aspect? nobody has talked about Guru much lately.
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Being able to pick any class whether its one of each or 4 mage classes is a pretty cool idea. However if the good spells/skills are removed and saved only for multiclasses of the same type of class, where you'd get the best stuff if you go all the same class type, I don't think it would result in a lot of good characters. If you went all 4 classes in 1 type, you'd be good at 1 thing. If you wanted a balanced character and chose 4 different types of classes, you'd end up being good at nothing.
