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Hrmm, interesting idea Sarinith.. Imagines changing into 4000+ bats and flying home. :).
Anyways, another thing I mentioned to Syn,and he seemed to like the idea, but not mentioned here for Fiends, give them racial vampiric h2h damage.
In, general I like the ideas presented.
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~~@Sarinith:~~
> I don't think i agree with the extra tail for remort vamps, if anything there speed and strength should be increased. or a gohome/recall type skill where they suddenly turn into a horde of bats and fly away, number of bats determined by there HP, depnding on how many bats make it back to the recall depends on how much HP the vamp has when he reforms.
I think i agree with you, the tail just struck me because thinking of fiend i was thinking of a demon. but you're right it is a vampire, who don't really have tails unless they morph into something that does, seems it would slow them down to have a tail.
The bat idea is super cool. :> Gohoming abilitiy: probably kind of uninteresting, perhaps the bats wil be agressive and slow people down as you try to get away?
> And with changelings being able to Mimic defenses of other races? I don't understand this can you expand a little for me Syn?
Sure, no prob. My idea is that: the changeling has polymorphic properties similar to the vampire's, since slayers and vampires can be referred to as the antithesis of each other… their shapeshifting abilities aren't nearly as complete as the vampire's because slayers are pious and don't feed off the flesh of the living for morphing. They can, however, channel magical energy of creatures and mimic other races to a lesser degree by adapting their fighting skills. Maybe someone with an interest in shapeshifting could expound on this for me, because it'sj ust something i pulled out of the air :)
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~~@RedRaven:~~
> Anyways, another thing I mentioned to Syn,and he seemed to like the idea, but not mentioned here for Fiends, give them racial vampiric h2h damage.
Its deffinitely a good idea, Red, I'll add it to the l ist for them.
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Elves seem to be given not much, but then, I am not sure what all is intended with what is given.
I am assuming that the flying ability would be like casting fly or wearing a pair of wynn boots?
And the radiate light would be like casting sanctuary or wearing a glowing item.
From an RP stand point, they are interesting additions and nice to see, but doesn't add anything that I can tell to elven remorts. Sorry if I am wrong, but if there is additional thoughts to what these will do, I am curious as to what they are. (not trying to sound sarcastic, mean spirited, etc., really am curious as to if they will do more than what is said)
The absorb spells is the one that I am not clear as to how will actually work. By the sounds of it, it is a natural occurring affect, so always on, but how effective will it be? I know it won't be like 75% of spells absorbed or some rediculous number. Will there be a level limit as to what it could absorb, like up to 15 or something or any spell?
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What i took the spell absorbstion as Ith was while the spell still affected you, you absorbed a percented of the MP need to cast the spell. I dunno could be wrong thats just my interpritation. and my bad spelling :P but it makes sense since mort elves seem to have a greater resistance to magic that when they remort that ability increases as well. On the same note the only thing i could see adding to the combat of a remort elf is what they gain as mort, something to do with bow and archery problem is besides the unlikely event of attaching spells to arrows somehow i dunno what that could be.
And thanks for the explanation thing Synner ^^ i understand now, and i could suggest that with PK such an ability would maybe increase skills depending on what skills where used against the remorted slayer during the combat?
As for the bat idea, i dunno about making them aggressive but maybe stun the opponent so they fall on there arse like a bash? or mebbe like the whole reckoning wind thing that forces you into a sitting position? Something to make it a decent fleeing ability. But as so eloqently said in this thread, i'm just throwing poop at the wall for general discussion. And if said remort vamp is somehow lacking a home make it to the nearest recall point maybe?
Anyway besides a comment on the "Crafty Metalwork" of remort dwarfves which sounds quite funky i'm near all out of ideas.
back later
Sa
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For drows.. I'd really like to see an addition of an attack. So far almost all the things that make drows/specters different are defenses, and I'm already pretty hard to hit. That sneakiness should effect more though, like having racial sneak all the time as a remort instead of just in the dark, and having a better chance of hitting and/or increased damage on backstab. For specter, it would be nice to have something that reflects the name instead of only enhanced drow skills, like a terrify skill that would work like intimidate (which is kind of useless at the moment.. it only works on mobs so little that I'd just kill them quickly much faster than trying to intimidate them. Mobs big enough I'd actually want to scare them away are so resistant to it they just laugh at me :p) but hey, maybe I just get a kick out of the idea of scaring the cr@p out of someone *grin* Don't drows also have something to do with armor in stories? Not sure, but I remember something similar to dwarf's mithril for drows.
Minotaurs additions look a little off too.. the reduced damage seems a little high, but they don't seem to get much else new going for them. I think it'd be nice for them to get a defense to do with those horns, where they can choose to ram someone as they attack and take the blow to their horns which would be far less damage than getting slashed say on the arm- maybe 50% less damage for a blow to the horns instead of 20% less damage all the time - would be a bit more balance I think to have more like 10% less. That would be more interesting for battle. When I think of a mino, I also think of something to do with snorting (think cartoon bull) and rage, I don't know if something like that already exists though :p Would also be cool to have a few pieces of horn armor around, think steel plated horns :)
For elf, it would be interesting to have a skill or natural ability which resists aggro mobs, not as strong as CoG, but just something which makes the liklihood that aggros will attack lower. Something like charisma since they're supposed to be wonderfully good and beautiful and such. Also would be interesting for them to have enhanced hearing, like be able to hear someone coming a few rooms away if they enter the room.. ie you hear AxeMurderer approaching not far off to the west. Hey I want that too :)
For vampire, does feeding already heal? In most vamp stories/movies feeding will heal a vampire a bit and make them able to regenerate again. That turning into bats idea is pretty cool - I think it'd work well to turn into maybe a half dozen bats and only one is really you, shifted, the rest are mobs and fly around to confuse your attacker while you make a quick escape. If attacked in bat mode though you should shift back and have a timer before being able to shift into bat again.
'K, that's my 2 cents worth. What do you guys think?
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Dwarves need to get an extra attack when using 2handed axes, i dont think having 5 attacks with a 2handed is all that over powered, this is all i have to say.
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For elves: Ith, you're right.. the stuff I added seems a little RP-oriented. Could anyone help give me some good uses on a "flying" ability?
By limited flying, what I meant was that seraphs (having wings) would be able to travel much faster. This would only really apply in the wildernes: they could go 5-6 rooms at a time. But seraphs, not being completely flying creatures, would get tired pretty quickly and have to regen while a dragon could go on indefinitely.
The radiates light thing: this one is almost purely RP, stuck in because I like it.. radiating light constantly lights the room and the adjacent rooms to yours. Not a huge gain, more for looks than for anything else.
Absorption of spell magic: the way I intended it to work is this, every time a spell is cast against you (an offensive spell), you gain a small % of the mana required to cast that spell, whether it succeeds or not. Care would have to be taken not to make this overpowered in the elf's favor. Feel free to tell me if you can think of something else for this to mean.
What I really liked is an idea allowing elves, for example, to enchant their arrows with certain spells and making them like ranged-use potions… do you guys think this would overpower bows and arrows? They're pretty strong right now, although toned down in the release. But I think being able to enchant your arrows with magic spells would be cool.
More on all this later 8)
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Fiends: Smoke making the fiend unattackable seems REALLY overpowered to me. Imagine running through an entire aggro zone and skipping difficult sections just because you don't need to deal with any of the mobs. Flee does that already, but it's always risky.
As for the bats idea, I definately like it, however, making it like gohome would really just eliminate the need for houses. If it was a fleeing tactic, I'd have to imagine the penalty on it would be phenomenal because you're going from hitting an armored demon to hitting a bat. Even if it were a big bat, it seems that changing into them would be a death wish.
I did like the idea of another attack for vampires although the tail would be a bit cliche. I don't see too much that is helpful for fiends in the works. (just going by Syn's original list) extra sense of perception seems to be the equivalent of what vamps already have (perm detect hid/invis), detecting hidden items and exits is a skill already I believe, and hearing others conversations (although great from an RP stance) is relatively useless because of the lack of true interaction.
Feeding should definately heal although fiends already have the consume ability which does heal a percent of what hp is missing. perhaps that should be increased or maybe heal hp, mana, and stamina since you're taking the time to sit down and eat an entire corpse.
Drow: Drow thus far have been a defensive race more than anything. I believe giving them more attacks would really just make them unstoppable. Imagine having higher than normal number attacks along with the greatest number of defenses (even more after the update) in the game.
I do like the increased chance of intimidate (terrify, spook, startle, haunt, whatever) because it would make the spell/skill worth practicing. Currently there is nothing that you would want to scare out of a room that you couldn't just kill easily enough (aside from a couple specific instances).
Elves: They do need more. One thing that definately needs to be added is the dex bonus for haste should come with natural haste (a 120 with the spell haste gets +4 dex while a 120 elf get no dex bonus currently). There was talk about some sort of possible stacking of elven haste and the spell haste (either effects such as dex, a chance of another attack, an increased chance of dodge/acro working, or even something as simple as less delay on spells)
The sensing of things from rooms away would seem like a vampire's esp ability. I do like the lowered chance of being attacked by aggro mobs (smoke would make it impossible to attack, but a lowered chance would be alright imo). perhaps this could be something that could apply to changlings, fiends, spectres, and elven remorts (can't remember what they're called right now).
Imbueing arrows/bolts with specific spells would be really cool. they of course wouldn't be permenant and would only be shadows of the true spells, however, this could open up the door for a few new spells specifically designed to exploit all racial vulns (something as extreme as an arrow of water (it won't sound as dumb if people agree to it and we have more time to think it over) to exploit dwarven vulns, etc)
Dwarves: I could see an extra attack. I think that another with the 2handed weapon would be overkill, so perhaps another offhand attack (unless I am mistaken, offhand weapons can only be 1-handed weapons)
Sorry if this sounds really biased, but that's what discussions are for, right :)
eRT
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I like the idea of the arrows with spells. How about an arrow with "charm person" casted on it, that makes people under a love spell and will do anything for you. 8)
On another note, doesn't infuse (ranger skill) do something similiar to that?
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I also like the idea of arrows with spells :) Don't forget bolts though - crossbow seems to get overshadowed by regular bow more often than not already. Perhaps have a specific spell or skill which takes an arrow or bolt you already have to create a specific type. For example a skill of lite arrow to set it on fire, a spell of iron plating to cover an arrow in iron etc.. Have the effect be on a timer so it doesn't end up being too powerful. I think it'd be very cool to be able to make flaming bolts *grin* Nothing says murderous rampage like shooting flaming objects at people. :twisted:
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Ok, I like some things and don't like others. Let's do this by race; I'll go in the order Syn did, just to make it easier for me.
Titan/Colossus
Fast healing - I don't really think so.. no real need, they already have the highest hp in the game.
Greater strength - as Syn said, he's tinkering around with removing Titanic Attack, since they're supposed to be big, strong, and slow. So I'd really like to see a Titan with the normal amount of attacks, just each would be more powerful than normal. Or, maybe even less attacks than normal, and make them a little more difficult to block with certain defenses (ie these attacks are very powerful and therefore hard to just shrug off with a shield, if you were to do that all the time, you'd break your arm and/or that shield.. and because the attacks are done with such confidence and force, you couldn't really change their path (ie parry))
Draconian/Dragon
Stronger breaths - long needed.
Fly over ocean - great! Fits perfectly
Turning pierce/slash on hard scales - this, honestly, may be too much.. depending on how often it would be allowed. If it's like 5-10% (depending on your skill %) of the time, it may be just fine, but anymore would be nuts.
Claws - something I suggested before: allow Dragons to select a hand to hand "mode," dealing either slash or bash type damage depending on if they wish to use their claws or just their fists.
Tail deal - .. meh, I think if Dragon gets all of the above, it'd be perfectly fine.
Elf/Seraph
Minor fly - not bad, couldn't hurt and doesn't seem to be overpowering.. but don't put too much stock in this, as this isn't a __real__ big difference.
Radiate light - about the same as I say for minor fly.. plus cool for rp purposes, as was said.
Absorb partial mana from spells directed at them - while this might be kind of cool, they already have a crazy amount of mana, and in most fights would already run out of hp much sooner than mana.. so I'm not sure how much this is needed.
Enchant arrows/bolts - sounds great, could be what this race really needs.
Dex bonus from natural haste - definitely put this in.
Slayer/Changeling
Claws - what exactly would this do? Slash-type damage? More damage? An explanation would be great. Also, perhaps what I had suggested for Dragons, in being able to select between the two damage-types.
Mimic defenses - sounds cool.. but who would this affect besides drows?
Reflect/purify light in well-lit areas - again, what does this do? Damage? How often does it kick in?
Additional AC - yeah, this character is naked and doesn't get __any__ of the benefits of eq (__no__ hp/mana/mv bonuses, which really become quite substantial later on, plus have to cast all spells except haste and sanc), they do have a fair amount of attacks and with the update allowing martial arts to work while shifted do a decent amount of damage.. but still nothing to compare with someone who wears a full set of armor and a weapon.
Human/Avatar
More DP/Pneuma - sounds good.
50% less time in void - sounds good.
Can plane-travel - hmm.. could be interesting, again, what exactly would this entail?
Dwarf/Berserker
Enhance stats of weaponry - sounds good, exact modifications able to be made to items?
20% more damage with axes/hammers - love it.
33% faster hp/mana/mv regen undergroud - cool, sounds good, but what areas count as this?
Extra attack whlie wearing 2-handed axe - No. With the 20% extra damage, I think that's enough. Almost everyone seems to want to give their race an extra attack. Bah.
Lich/Wraith
Locate items/characters farther than normal using energy to do so - sounds good.
Deflect magic - exact meaning, please?
Minotaur/Hellbaron
20% less damage except fire - might be a bit overpowered, not sure..
–- (alternatively) Star's ram and take blow to horns for less damage - might be good.. either way would be more balanced than the full 20% off all.
Having Horns - sure, why not.. plus can help in other things (previous suggestion)
Drow/Spectre
33% dodge aggro mobs - nice, sounds good
33% evade tracking - again, sounds good
auto-sneak/hide in dark areas - yet again, I like it
50% faster hunt/autohunt - first, there's an autohunt? Second, might be a tad fast.. 30-40%, I'd say (let's put 33% for __everything!__ (heh))
Extra attack - No, enough of this. Let them be defensive.. give them a personality, don't just make them be another "all-arounder". Plus, as Ert said, might be too much.
Vampire/Fiend
Tail - I agree with Ert, extra attack .. nah. Yet again, people want more attacks for their race.. if any race should get this, only a scant few.
auto-detect invis/hidden (I believe? .. or was that already in the game?) - sounds good
Detect hidden items/exits - as was said, very limited application, but sure, why not.
Hear conversations rooms away - ok, sure.. but should be able to turn it off, as it could get annoying.. especially in chat, heh.
Other random "smoke" deal - smoke making un-attackable could really be abused to get through tough pk locations, such as river, etc.. As for against mobs.. CoG already does that.
Bats - I like the idea of 6-12 bats much better.. wouldn't screw with the game nearly as much, and wouldn't make it a seemingly-invincible escape.
Sith/Naga
Spit acid/poison - hmm.. maybe
Shed to regen quickly - the shedding just a reason for standard fast regen? or do you actually have to do something to activate this?
Lay eggs to make Sith-lings - interesting, but just how useful will these little guys be? I mean currently, leveling in forms sucks, and they would contribute much less than a player. I don't know how much damage they'd do (or be able to take), but perhaps would they help out in pk? Or, if intended as more of general aids, would it be possible to make an exception to the form exp rules to make all the exp go to you? (and only have a very small limit for these guys, if you do that)
(wipes brow) Ok, that should get most of what was said. Now, to get back to work, would love to hear feedback and all that good stuff.
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> __Dwarves: I could see an extra attack. I think that another with the 2handed weapon would be overkill, so perhaps another offhand attack (unless I am mistaken, offhand weapons can only be 1-handed weapons)__
I dont think that a dwarf needs to generally have an extra attack, infact i dont think anyone needs to have anything more than 5 attacks hasted and dual wielded, also i cannot think of any particula attack that a dwarf should have that would work in with them, UNLESS you were to implement some sort of combo attacks that thay could while wielding an axe, also ertai you cannot dual wield while using a 2handed weapon, i have focused on 2handed axes as they are the only axes ingame that are worth using, axe is generally diced a fair percentage under sword and the 20% extra damage would prolly make the 1handed axes on par with a sword of the same level thus negating any benifit gained, and why shouldnt a berserker be able to use a 2handed axe more masterfuly that anyone else thus gaining an extra attack with it, is it not what he has trained all his life to do, be the master of the axe.
> __Extra attack whlie wearing 2-handed axe - No. With the 20% extra damage, I think that's enough. Almost everyone seems to want to give their race an extra attack. Bah.__
Think of the things you loose by using a 2handed axe, no holy sword, no silver or holy, no flaming(well not in an axe that is worth using, when compared to tainted sword), no sword and dagger style, loss of atleast 18 hit and damrolls for not dual wielding, and loss of the dual wielded attack, 20% extra damage is nothing when you loose all the above just for using a weapon that is a racial item.
Posible solutions, dwarfs get axe style that does the same as sword and dagger style,(extra parry) are able to cast holy sword on axes, get a hit/damroll bonus of 1/10 of level while using 2handed axes, and if you were to give them anything attacking then as some sort of combo attack in the vein of double backstab that can be used in combat, something like chop chop chop, with a fairly long lag, 2 rounds maby.
There you go, i guess i had more to say than i hoped for.
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This sounds more like a problem with lack of good axes, rather than the Berserker needing even more stuff for it. Axes should have higher base damage than swords anyway.. so with the 20% and a decently powerful axe, I think it should be good enough.. and remember that Dwarves/Berserkers already have a ton of benefits, as much as almost any other race, and __no__ real disadvantages or vulnerabilities. I think they're perfectly fine.. just make some better 120 remort axes.
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Well I am all for changes in the game for making titans more fair, but damn… taking away titanic attack too, why not make it so they don't get 4th attack when destroyer, that will make it more fair since they are getting behead, titans aren't impossible, they can be killed rather easy as it is, people just aren't smart about it. There is only one reason people can't take on Arkain, arkains OS equipment makes him over powered, along with 4th attack and behead not being bothered by circle lag it is a little bit tough to take him on. So because of his OS armor and the fact that all his classes are pking classes, every one thinks that titans are over powered.
Back to the point, taking away the fourth attack gained as a destroyer will make it a little more fair seeing as we are losing a lot more as it is, lower dex ect. Another thought though on titans, to make them fair and a little more towards big and bulky, take away circle skill and make bash in some way more affective, like more damage, maybe less lag on it, or the person hit would be knocked over longer, it would be a little odd seeing a titan circle around an elf... But the most important thing, make the 4th attack something a titan can't gain, and the behead a manual skill.
And on a final note, the 2handed weapon skill should be colossus, that is the one thing that i KNOW needs to be changed with titans.
Balder
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Vampires are supposed to be super strong, super fast, can fly (depending on which version you're talking about), have psi abilities, and can see in the dark (plus more that I can't think of right now). :) I'd comment on the other races, but I don't know much about those so it wouldn't be a fair representation of those races. 8)
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Well, if you want to get into what races are like, before people read the books on lord of the rings, elfs were short little creaters that helped santa make toys, now they are big tall fast creatures, I think we need to let some things on vampires just slide :p
But on a more serious note, Vampires aren't under or over powered, they seem to be fine where they are. Every one wants to add this and make things more or less powerful to favor thier races, I you are going to make a suggestion, have it a little bit within reason, i say this because the last comment i heard about vamps getting an extra attack, though i know it wont happen was a little over board with some of the requests people are making. I have a vamp alt, they are fine, other than the sun damage, they really don't need any things added on to there abilities, it is a pain as it is to check for vamps in some cpk areas. If any class in the game has it bad and needs to be upped at all it is going to be humans and slayers, and also a little work on liches though they are a little useful. Only reason people don't complane about slayers ever is because there are very few who keep slayers because they pretty much suck, so no one spends time on them long enough to complane.
And aslo this may not make the best sense, i am tired, so if i messed up on something, sorry
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I didn't write anything about adding any of the things that I wrote. I just know a bit about them and was listing things about vampires to help generate ideas for things to be added. It was the big guy who suggested vampires growing a tail for an extra attack. It'd be cool if all the remort races got an extra attack though. Btw, don't forget about the elves who make shoes and the Keebler elves.
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I like the idea of spell effects on arrows to. but what i would suggest is a racial ability for your seraphim, like a beefed infuse.
Say for first class you could enchant your arrows, or maybe bow itself for simplicity with your standard elemental damages like fire, ice, electrical etc. and as the seraphim goes up in level have them able to add more and varying effects to the shots. You would have to be careful as to what effects where allowed to be put onto arrows though.
On the same note i really would have the skill/spell applied to the bow itself for 2 reasons A) its in the seraph's hands, it relfects to me at least the shooter channeling mana driectly into the bow and thus the amunition, and B) still means you can infuse your arrows as a ranger. although weather you could allow infused bow + Infused arrow is something to consider since it could get rather OP. I imagine what effects are available would run somewhat like the bard's music
As for drow, there the masters of ambush. I think that fireing a crossbow from sneak/dark place they should get a backstab like damage bonus to the crossbow, also i think the extra backstab damage would be nice, also a better chance of blackjack. Also if where talkin specter, we should always consider the soul drain thingy. Maybe a vampiric touch for mana?
And i still think Dragons should get a swoop/bash thing. :)
Sar
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I like that idea for drows :) Our sneakiness should be useful against more than mobs - since almost all players have things like detect hidden. Also the lag on firing crossbow is kinda out of hand.. I barely use it because the damage done really isn't worth the time it takes to fire. I can beat 'em to death faster n easier.
lol my hubby (mostly asleep - computer is in bedroom) asks me what are you doing? writting about updated races/classes and so on. You should have fire breathing dragons. We already have that. You should have poop flinging trolls! We don't have trolls. Poop flinging trolls! …and goblins... now he's snoring again hehe...
