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As previously mentioned I believe we should go through our rules one by one, and see if they have withstood the test of time. I'll start by posting my suggestions:
[quote]
* No helping your characters with your own characters. Multi logging
is allowed as long as your characters are not in the same area
and aren't helping each other in any way, DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY.
[/quote]
I think this one is a bit ambiguous, since the second sentence suggests that it is OK to help your characters with your own characters as long as they aren't both logged on simultaneously, which seems to contradict the first sentence. Also we need to work in the new stipulation about only one char being able to be out of social at a time.
My suggested wording:[quote]
No helping your characters with your own characters, directly or indirectly. If you log in multiple characters, all but one must remain in the chat area.
[/quote]
[quote]
* Directly interfering in fights in which you are not a part of is illegal.
This includes kill stealing.
[/quote]
I'm kind of not sure about the importance of this one. It is meant to keep people from helping out in fights without being formed with one of the two fighting parties (directly being involved in a fight). It forbids for example, people healing an NPC that a player is fighting, or handing potions to one of the combatants. I don't really agree that this is a good idea anymore, since it makes combat duller, reducing it to two groups of people whacking on each other.
Kill stealing I am quite against, is there some way we can make it impossible rather than making it illegal?
My suggestion: Take out the part about interfering in fights you aren't a part of. Keep the kill stealing clause until we can figure out a decent way to prevent it by code (suggestions are welcome).
[quote]
* Cheating will not be tolerated. This includes accepting favors
from gods and exploiting bugs. If you find a bug, report it immediately.
[/quote]
This one is definitely necesarry, but I believe the "Cheating will not be tolerated" is a bit redundant, since I consider multiplaying and botting to be cheating as well.
My suggestion: split the rule into two rules, since accepting favors from gods and exploiting bugs are two somewhat seperate things. I also think we should take out the part about reporting bugs, since this would be better put in the MOTD. As much as I want people to report bugs, I can't fathom how sensible it would be to put someone on trial for knowing about a bug and not reporting it.
[quote]
* Selling, trading, and transferring of characters in any way is illegal.
any parties caught will be deleted.
[/quote]
This one is a good idea, but I think it could be made more brief.
My suggested wording:[quote]
Transferring ownership of characters for any reason is illegal, and punishable by deletion.
[/quote]
[quote]
* Out-of-game threats or posting personal info about people anywhere
is not allowed. Punishments vary but are usually very harsh.
[/quote]
This one is necesarry due to all of the wackos that seem to play these games.
My suggested wording: [quote]
Out-of-game threats and posting real-life info about people anywhere is strictly forbidden, and punishable by deletion and/or IP ban.
[/quote]
[quote]
* If you talk, put it on the right channel (help channels).
[/quote]
Pretty short and sweet.
My suggested wording:[quote]
Talk on the correct channel (help channels).
[/quote]
[quote]
* It is illegal to form with someone and lead them to CPK, then CPK them.
[/quote]
Should this really be illegal? I am really against higher level people doing it to newbies... but it strikes me as something which is an asshole thing to do, but maybe shouldn't be illegal. Thoughts on this?
[quote]
* Botting (having triggers/scripts play the game for you while you are away) and
spamming skills or spells to improve them is illegal.
This includes triggers that initiate combat, channel triggers,
and movement triggers. Any questions, contact an IMP.
[/quote]
I think we could do away with the last two sentences. They don't really clarify much.
[quote]
* Rule changes are to be made at the discretion of the immortals.
Please respect their decisions and if there is a problem with an immortal
contact an IMP immediately.
[/quote]
Should we do away with this? It seems like a catch all clause. I never really liked it much.
So, all in all here is an updated list:[quote]
* No helping your characters with your own characters, directly or
indirectly. If you log in multiple characters, all but one must
remain in the chat area.
* Kill stealing is illegal.
* Exploiting game bugs is illegal.
* Accepting favors from gods is illegal.
* Selling, trading, and transferring of characters in any way is illegal.
any parties caught will be deleted.
* Out-of-game threats or posting personal info about people anywhere
is not allowed. Punishments vary but are usually very harsh.
* Talk on the correct channel (help channels).
* It is illegal to form with someone and lead them to CPK, then CPK them.
* Botting (having triggers/scripts play the game for you) and
spamming skills or spells to improve them is illegal.
[/quote]
Any thoughts are welcome 8)
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I'd add something to the effect of:
If you suspect something is illegal, ask before doing it. Ignorance will not accepted to get out of punishment.
-
~~@Qalinosk:~~
> I'd add something to the effect of:
>
> If you suspect something is illegal, ask before doing it. Ignorance will not accepted to get out of punishment.
Most agreed.
-
I agree with the comment about ignorance as an invalid excuse, definitely.
As for the current CPK rule, I'm pretty happy with where it stands. If we drop the rule, new players and players who maybe don't have the big huge friends to protect them will have a very difficult time not only getting to POA, for example, but also simply with trusting other players and possibly enjoying the game. I think if someone agrees to lead you through CPK, you should be able to trust them to not be leading you to your own demise just because you maybe don't know people so well, or you think that you can trust them. Honestly, I think if we removed the rule, we'd have to listen to so much more bitching because so and so will have led this person or another to CPK only to kill them. (Seriously, can you imagine the whining and bickering?) With the player base not being huge, sometimes it's hard to find a person you can trust enough (and is big enough) to take you through a dangerous area, and not everyone can sneak through unnoticed. With the rule there, it helps to ensure a bit of trust that I would hate to see lost. On the other hand, it's not like even if the rule stands there is total safety; I can think of a number of times where even with escorts people have died, or other people have baited others to CPK, etc. If CPK was an optional thing, it would be less of an issue, but it really is necessary for everyone to go to POA at some point, unless they have slaves to do their souling for multis for them.. :D
Anyway, ignoring the rambling, I would have to say I support keeping the rule as it is instead of deleting it. It's an asshole thing for people to do to newbies (and can deter them from returning to the game, which is something we definitely don't want right now), and even more experienced players benefit from the small strand of trust in that rule. I would hate to see a newbie, or anyone else really, get screwed over like that. It's just my opinion, but I wouldn't like to see that rule removed.
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I agree that it needs to be altered, but not removed.
It is illegal to lead a formed player into a cpk/npk/arena room for the sole purpose of killing them. Once the group reaches their destination and disbands, all players are at their own risk upon leaving the room.
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I went over the rules and this is what I came up with. Criticisms welcome.
Multiplaying
• You are allowed to have multiple characters logged onto the game, but only one can be outside of the chat area at a time.
• In cases where multiple players share the same IP address due to a network, email coders@sentiencemud.net with the names of the characters that will be logging in from that address. Each character must be operated by an individual person, this is not a license to multiplay.
• You may not use your characters to assist each other in any way, directly or indirectly.
I must admit I don’t understand the harsh response to transferring gear between characters. I have no problem with this. If you put in the time to get it, buy it, steal it, whatever, then I see no reason why it should be an issue to put it where it serves the most benefit. As I understand it, Redraven was bitch slapped for this reason primarily. This seems excessive and a bit nuts to me. I would add an exception allowing the exchange of gear between characters as long as it isn’t done in a way that negatively affects gameplay (auctioning gear to your own character or to a friend so they can give it to your alt who is deep in Mystica fighting Wynn, etc). Auction is not an acceptable way to transfer gear, but through other players (in most cases) or using the mail system (in all cases) is fine by me.
Combat
• Interfering in a PC vs. NPC battle is not allowed, with the following exception: you may heal PCs if there are no PCs on the opposing side.
• Interfering in a PC vs PC battle is not allowed under any circumstances.
• If you enter a PK area in a formation it is illegal to attack any member of that formation until you both have left the area.
• Gear looted from a formation member’s corpse must be immediately returned to that player.
• It is not illegal to trick a player into entering a PK area, then attack.
I don’t know how you want to define kill stealing. In my opinion, if there is no PC engaged in combat with an NPC then you are clear to attack. This would include situations where a person or group has spent a lot of time working over some large mob, then another player swooping in and getting the killing blow as long as there is no PC in combat with it at the time. If the player or group leaves to heal up and you manage to come finish the job, good for you, sucks to be them.
Channels and Communication
• Use the correct channels (help channels).
• Vulgarity, swearing, and obscene language are subjective notions and therefore unregulated on public channels.
• Racist, sexist, or other discriminatory language is unacceptable.
• Out of character verbal harassment and/or threats will be dealt with harshly.
• Chat “tags” on public channels are permissible as long as they adhere to the following restrictions:
o They must not exceed 5 characters in length.
o They must not contain more than 4 color codes.
o The final color code must be the same as the default color for the channel ({M for gossip, {G for OOC, etc).
• Restrings, character descriptions, and titles cannot contain racist, sexist, discriminatory language, harassments, or threats.
There must be a way to just code that bit about tags in.
Scripts
• Botting is illegal. This includes using scripts to play the game for you whether you are at the keys or not, spamming skills to improve them, and any automated action your character makes while you are not at the keys, actively playing the game.
• Triggers or scripts which do any of the following are always illegal:
o Move your character. Speedwalks are not considered a script.
o Initiate combat.
o Use a skill or spell repeatedly with the intent of improving it.
Other
• Exploiting bugs is not allowed. If you’re not sure if something is a bug or a feature, ask.
• Accepting favors from immortals is not allowed. This includes game hints, money, equipment, undue transfers, or other unwarranted benefits.
• Transferring ownership of characters is illegal and punishable by deletion.
• Using the arena to transfer equipment, money, or other objects is not allowed.
• It is each player’s responsibility to be aware of the rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
-
Hmm. I don't really like channel tags, but they seem popular and some churches even insist you use them if you're capable of shifting etc.
Seems like there are a number of rules relating to tags, number of colours used, number of characters, restoring the default channel colour after the end of the tag etc. Add to this the number of times I've seen someone log in and having the channel tag of their alt appear when they speak (I've done this on a number of occasions as well), and I'm wondering if maybe it's time to encourage a small discussion on the subject.
So why don't we code it into the game?
* In the same vein as the prompt command, have a tag or channeltag command.
* The command could remind them of the rules everytime they go to set or reset their tag.
* The command could force them to choose a tag that conforms to the rules.
* Once a tag is set, the channels themselves would restore the correct channel colour.
* If you wanted to be really strict about it, you could strip out any further colour codes in the channels automatically.
Pros:
* We can remove the channel tag rules from the master list of rules.
* The rules are enforced by code, not by instruction.
* Imms do not have to be online for the tag rules to be enforced.
* Moves peoples channel tag stuff out of their client script and back onto the game, removing the problem of exposing who has which alt (or imm) accidentally
* You could allow the user to only use a tag if they're using a skill like shift/shape etc, or to have it always on.
Cons:
* We nanny the users - "can't they just obey the rules?"
* Someone has to devote resources to coding/testing it.
* It's another command to have to answer questions about.
Food for thought?
Vizz.
-
~~@Pollution:~~
> Multiplaying
>
> • You are allowed to have multiple characters logged onto the game, but only one can be outside of the chat area at a time.
>
> • In cases where multiple players share the same IP address due to a network, email coders@sentiencemud.net with the names of the characters that will be logging in from that address. Each character must be operated by an individual person, this is not a license to multiplay.
>
> • You may not use your characters to assist each other in any way, directly or indirectly.
Agreed here, except the last of the three points would have to be modified to allow people to mail equipment as an exception.
> I must admit I don’t understand the harsh response to transferring gear between characters. I have no problem with this. If you put in the time to get it, buy it, steal it, whatever, then I see no reason why it should be an issue to put it where it serves the most benefit. As I understand it, Redraven was bitch slapped for this reason primarily. This seems excessive and a bit nuts to me. I would add an exception allowing the exchange of gear between characters as long as it isn’t done in a way that negatively affects gameplay (auctioning gear to your own character or to a friend so they can give it to your alt who is deep in Mystica fighting Wynn, etc). Auction is not an acceptable way to transfer gear, but through other players (in most cases) or using the mail system (in all cases) is fine by me.
As we discussed before, I am in agreement with you on this point. I've decided to allow equipment transfer through mail as the sole way you can help your earlier level characters. As a summary to the other immortals, these is the logic behind it:
* Effort should be rewarded. Essentially, as stated above, if you spend the time to get equipment, you should be able to do with it as you please, unless you want to abuse bugs to clone it. My original argument against the transfer of equipment is that it puts true newbies at a disadvantage (e.g. levelling areas being cleared out by more powerful newbie alts outfitted by their higher-level chars); however I realised this can be avoided with some good planning and design.
* Various people, besides Redraven, have obviously transferred EQ to their alts through the 6-year run of the game, and we haven't seen any horrible catastrophes come by as a result of this. Not to say that we don't have problems with newbie retention, but I don't believe this to be a result of imbalance between true newbies and alternates. As you mentioned earlier, eq transfer is allowed on most MMORPGs and doesn't cause any problems.
* It will free up immortal time, since monitoring this sort of thing is difficult and not always possible. Personally I don't want imms to waste their time any more than completely necesarry.
> Combat
>
> • Interfering in a PC vs. NPC battle is not allowed, with the following exception: you may heal PCs if there are no PCs on the opposing side.
>
> • Interfering in a PC vs PC battle is not allowed under any circumstances.
>
> • If you enter a PK area in a formation it is illegal to attack any member of that formation until you both have left the area.
>
> • Gear looted from a formation member’s corpse must be immediately returned to that player.
>
> • It is not illegal to trick a player into entering a PK area, then attack.
The first two make sense to me. I would modify them to say "unless you are formed with one of the combatting parties", since we want to allow combat between multiple (right now just two) parties of people. I believe these restrictions could be solved with code rather easily (i.e. the game wouldn't allow you to cast heal on either party in combat unless you are formed with that party).
The third and fifth I agree with. To me at least, it solves the problem of people bringing newbies into CPK to kill them, which I believe can be solved with in-game design (i.e. not placing easily-reached CPK areas into the game, which we've been doing a fairly decent job of so far). I think tricking people into PK and even CPK should be allowed as long as you aren't bringing them in against their will (by summoning them or being the formation leader).
> I don’t know how you want to define kill stealing. In my opinion, if there is no PC engaged in combat with an NPC then you are clear to attack. This would include situations where a person or group has spent a lot of time working over some large mob, then another player swooping in and getting the killing blow as long as there is no PC in combat with it at the time. If the player or group leaves to heal up and you manage to come finish the job, good for you, sucks to be them.
I would agree with that one. I think it actually brings an extra dimension of challenge into the game, for example if you are in combat with a big bad monster such as Gazar and in addition to having to fight him, being on the lookout for other players. So I think we should drop it, as it's a pain in the ass to enforce.
> Channels and Communication
>
> • Use the correct channels (help channels).
>
> • Vulgarity, swearing, and obscene language are subjective notions and therefore unregulated on public channels.
>
> • Racist, sexist, or other discriminatory language is unacceptable.
>
> • Out of character verbal harassment and/or threats will be dealt with harshly.
>
> • Chat “tags” on public channels are permissible as long as they adhere to the following restrictions:
>
> o They must not exceed 5 characters in length.
>
> o They must not contain more than 4 color codes.
>
> o The final color code must be the same as the default color for the channel ({M for gossip, {G for OOC, etc).
>
> • Restrings, character descriptions, and titles cannot contain racist, sexist, discriminatory language, harassments, or threats.
>
> There must be a way to just code that bit about tags in.
There definitely is, Vizz summed up all of the good points above. I'm not sure if he mentioned this, but we can also let people have their cake and eat it too by allowing them to toggle off display of other people's tags if they don't like them. I personally think they're kind of cool as long as they're short and not blinding, but giving people a choice makes everybody happy.
> Scripts
>
> • Botting is illegal. This includes using scripts to play the game for you whether you are at the keys or not, spamming skills to improve them, and any automated action your character makes while you are not at the keys, actively playing the game.
>
> • Triggers or scripts which do any of the following are always illegal:
>
> o Move your character. Speedwalks are not considered a script.
>
> o Initiate combat.
>
> o Use a skill or spell repeatedly with the intent of improving it.
Mostly agreed here, as this gives some clarification on botting. I believe that for the technical cheaters we should define botting as "Having your computer play the game for you". With some clever code, I believe that we could work on making botting skills not profitable.
> Other
>
> • Exploiting bugs is not allowed. If you’re not sure if something is a bug or a feature, ask.
>
> • Accepting favors from immortals is not allowed. This includes game hints, money, equipment, undue transfers, or other unwarranted benefits.
>
> • Transferring ownership of characters is illegal and punishable by deletion.
>
> • Using the arena to transfer equipment, money, or other objects is not allowed.
>
> • It is each player’s responsibility to be aware of the rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
Agreed with everything here, the arena clause could be coded in much like there is no way (that I am aware of) to transfer items in social, although doubtlessly someone will prove me wrong in the future.
I believe this is a decent list. The subsections make it more organized and thus (hopefully) more rememberable. I am shooting to fit them all on one screen in 1024x768 resolution or so. Luckily we've spotted some stuff that can be coded in:
* PC interference in combat
* Channel tags… "unofficial" tags will still have to be dealt with
* Possibly botting skills and spells, although this might be a fair amount of thinking
* Using arena to transfer equipment
Of course this will take some work, but we can place the rules up and make sure to notify people of any changes since we are working on them. I might add a sentence about the rules in "rules" as being the ultimate judge - that is to say, even though the rules are under review, if what you are doing is illegal according to "rules", you can get punished for it.
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**Multiplaying**
• You are allowed to have multiple characters logged onto the game, but only one can be outside of the chat area at a time. This includes link dead characters.
• If several players are sharing the same IP address due to a network, please inform the immortal staff. Each character must still be operated by a separate person at all times, being on a network is not a license to multiplay.
• You may not use your characters to assist each other in any way, directly or indirectly, with the following exception: you are allowed to transfer equipment amongst your own characters by using the in-game mail system.
:arrow:Notes
Tweaked to deal with players dropping link with a character in the game and bringing a second into the playable world. Revised the character assistance rule to incorporate the new language concerning the transfer of equipment.
**Combat**
• Interfering in a PC vs. NPC battle is not allowed, with the following exception: you may heal PCs if there are no PCs on the opposing side.
• Interfering in a PC vs. PC battle is not allowed under any circumstances.
• If you enter a PK area in a formation it is illegal to attack any member of that formation until you both have left the area.
• Gear looted from a formation member’s corpse must be immediately returned to that player.
• It is not illegal to trick a player into entering a PK area, then attack.
:arrow:Notes
I don’t think the additional words about being in a group are necessary. I think the word interfere clearly says that you are not a group member. It should be obvious that if you are in a group, it is not interference to participate in combat alongside your group members.
In the past I argued against the use of summon as a PK tool. I’ve since changed my mind about that, since nosummon is toggled on by default on character creation (so newbies have to actively agree to allow a summon). I would also like to see summon require a moonstone, and for a brief warning message to be displayed the first time a character toggles nosummon off.
The fourth rule is important because it prevents the third rule from being circumvented. Without this rule, it would be legal to lead someone into PK and let them be killed by some mob so that you can steal their gear.
**Channels and Communication**
• Use the correct channels (help channels).
• Vulgarity, swearing, and obscene language are subjective notions and therefore unregulated on public channels.
• Racist, sexist, or other discriminatory language is unacceptable.
• Out of character verbal harassment and/or threats will be dealt with harshly.
• Restrings, character descriptions, and titles cannot contain racist, sexist, discriminatory language, harassments, or threats.
:arrow:Notes
Tag rules will become obsolete when tags are coded in.
**Scripts**
• Botting is illegal. This includes using scripts to play the game for you whether you are at the keys or not, spamming skills to improve them, and any automated action your character makes while you are not at the keys, actively playing the game.
• Triggers or scripts which do any of the following are always illegal:
o Move your character. Speedwalks are not considered a script.
o Initiate combat.
o Use a skill or spell repeatedly with the intent of improving it.
:arrow:Notes
No changes here, I believe the language you suggested is already there (“play the game for you”, “action your character makes while you are not at the keys”).
**Other**
• Exploiting bugs is not allowed. If you’re not sure if something is a bug or a feature, ask.
• Accepting favors from immortals is not allowed. This includes game hints, money, equipment, undue transfers, or other unwarranted benefits.
• Transferring ownership of characters is illegal and punishable by deletion.
• Using the arena to transfer equipment, money, or other objects is not allowed.
• It is each player’s responsibility to be aware of the rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
:arrow:Notes
Again, no changes. The arena clause should stay until it is impossible to exploit it. Perhaps a rule should be added concerning character names so we don’t have to tell people like Ashlynn that “Pooperella” isn’t acceptable.
-
~~@Pollution:~~
> **Multiplaying**
>
> • You are allowed to have multiple characters logged onto the game, but only one can be outside of the chat area at a time. This includes link dead characters.
>
> • If several players are sharing the same IP address due to a network, please inform the immortal staff. Each character must still be operated by a separate person at all times, being on a network is not a license to multiplay.
>
> • You may not use your characters to assist each other in any way, directly or indirectly, with the following exception: you are allowed to transfer equipment amongst your own characters by using the in-game mail system.
>
> :arrow:Notes
>
> Tweaked to deal with players dropping link with a character in the game and bringing a second into the playable world. Revised the character assistance rule to incorporate the new language concerning the transfer of equipment.
>
> **Combat**
>
> • Interfering in a PC vs. NPC battle is not allowed, with the following exception: you may heal PCs if there are no PCs on the opposing side.
>
> • Interfering in a PC vs. PC battle is not allowed under any circumstances.
>
> • If you enter a PK area in a formation it is illegal to attack any member of that formation until you both have left the area.
>
> • Gear looted from a formation member’s corpse must be immediately returned to that player.
>
> • It is not illegal to trick a player into entering a PK area, then attack.
>
> :arrow:Notes
>
> I don’t think the additional words about being in a group are necessary. I think the word interfere clearly says that you are not a group member. It should be obvious that if you are in a group, it is not interference to participate in combat alongside your group members.
>
> In the past I argued against the use of summon as a PK tool. I’ve since changed my mind about that, since nosummon is toggled on by default on character creation (so newbies have to actively agree to allow a summon). I would also like to see summon require a moonstone, and for a brief warning message to be displayed the first time a character toggles nosummon off.
>
> The fourth rule is important because it prevents the third rule from being circumvented. Without this rule, it would be legal to lead someone into PK and let them be killed by some mob so that you can steal their gear.
>
> **Channels and Communication**
>
> • Use the correct channels (help channels).
>
> • Vulgarity, swearing, and obscene language are subjective notions and therefore unregulated on public channels.
>
> • Racist, sexist, or other discriminatory language is unacceptable.
>
> • Out of character verbal harassment and/or threats will be dealt with harshly.
>
> • Restrings, character descriptions, and titles cannot contain racist, sexist, discriminatory language, harassments, or threats.
>
> :arrow:Notes
>
> Tag rules will become obsolete when tags are coded in.
>
> **Scripts**
>
> • Botting is illegal. This includes using scripts to play the game for you whether you are at the keys or not, spamming skills to improve them, and any automated action your character makes while you are not at the keys, actively playing the game.
>
> • Triggers or scripts which do any of the following are always illegal:
>
> o Move your character. Speedwalks are not considered a script.
>
> o Initiate combat.
>
> o Use a skill or spell repeatedly with the intent of improving it.
>
> :arrow:Notes
>
> No changes here, I believe the language you suggested is already there (“play the game for you”, “action your character makes while you are not at the keys”).
>
> **Other**
>
> • Exploiting bugs is not allowed. If you’re not sure if something is a bug or a feature, ask.
>
> • Accepting favors from immortals is not allowed. This includes game hints, money, equipment, undue transfers, or other unwarranted benefits.
>
> • Transferring ownership of characters is illegal and punishable by deletion.
>
> • Using the arena to transfer equipment, money, or other objects is not allowed.
>
> • It is each player’s responsibility to be aware of the rules. Ignorance is no excuse.
>
> :arrow:Notes
>
> Again, no changes. The arena clause should stay until it is impossible to exploit it. Perhaps a rule should be added concerning character names so we don’t have to tell people like Ashlynn that “Pooperella” isn’t acceptable.
With the added suggestion of a rule about names having to be reasonable, I pretty much think this list is about as close to perfect as we can get as far as both wording and reasoning. When I get a chance I'll draft up a notice to the players about it. If anyone hath any last words, speak them now, since it'll probably take me a few days to a week to get to it.
Edit: I started coding the channel tags (which I called flags, to kind of continue with the idea of setting imm_flag) since it's a fairly easy implementation to do. I took this opporotunity to strip colors from anything AFTER the tag to keep gossip purple, tells red, and whatever the hell else to maintain my sanity. A screenshot with a brief demonstration is attached.
-
Since we're throwing some major updates in as soon as I finish staff/projects, why not do this as well. I assume nobody has problems with Pol's list as listed in my last post, so this is the one I'm going to adopt after one final look through.
