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So, as a completely non-Sith player, and a person who generally remains neutral in these conversations, I'm going to throw in my own critical opinions to these proposed changes. (Ooh, I sound so fancy and formal :D)
> Granted they are tougher than some races, but still aren't that difficult to take on if fighting them correctly.
So, um.. If they're not difficult to beat, why would we weaken them? Just curious.
> Sleep toxin. Like black Jack, except you don't have to be in sneak or, if need be, they have to be in sneak. You can't use the bite durring battle however. It will take about 4 rounds to take affect if successful.
Okay, so.. You want to make an extremely weak and virtually useless version of blackjack? That makes things slightly redundant. I certainly do not understand the purpose of this skill, considering that any Sith would have blackjack; both assassin and rogue, the two subclasses from which Sith have the ability to choose, have the blackjack skill. Why would someone ever use this?
> Calm won't counter it, but if in frenzy or beserk, the idea of being enraged will slow its affects down to say 6 turns or so. Calm will actually speed it up to about 3\. If both are in affect, the speed change cancels the time change of the affects.
Just as a note.. Wouldn't frenzy logically speed it up? Being in a state of frenzy would cause a greater rate of blood flow and the toxin would reach the body more quickly, would it not?
I actually just checked some first aid sites because I was really unsure, and it does say "Keep the person calm, reassuring them that bites can be effectively treated in an emergency room. Restrict movement, and keep the affected area below heart level to reduce the flow of venom.". It's good to know I learned something in Biology, ahaha.
I'm not sure about this encoil idea.. The idea of having a skill that would restrict movement, inflict damage, and keep the target from fleeing seems a little too powerful to me. It seems like it would be worse than the sleep bite itself!
Although I may not be in favour of these proposed changes, I do indeed support a cure for sith toxins. However, they are meant to be dangerous, and don't take effect right on impact. Thus, I don't believe a simple cure poison should negate all affects of the toxin immediately. Possibly with increased failure rate due to the strength of the toxin, or something to that effect, it would make sense.
Perhaps I'm underestimating the Sith race. I'm aware that they have these toxin abilities, and yes, they need some sort of antidote, which the immortals are most likely aware of and working on, considering the amount of complaints on the matter. But these changes are too drastic, in my opinion, and will only make Sith into a race with weak skills and horrible vulnerabilities. Like Emtae said, they can be beaten if the opponent knows what they're doing. It's really like any other race; each have their strengths and vulnerabilities. It's all dependent upon the people playing and their approach to the battle. Many other races can be quite lethal if played skillfully, such as Titans and Draconians. So basically, I think that if a cure for toxins is implemented, and I anticipate it will be, then there really will be no need to change the Sith's abilities for the worse.
Tah dah, done now.
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Riane, i couldnt have said it better myself :)
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> Paralize, mmm I say get rid of it all together, unless the sith is lagged about close to the amount of rounds the biten person is. It can be a rather succesful attack as well. So an example of lag, if player is bitten, they are paralized for lets say 4 rounds, the sith is lagged for 3\. Siths can just bite, energy drain, and bite, making it damn near impossible to kill them.
So, lemme get this straight. Either get rid of a toxin or nerf it to the point where they will never use it? Brilliant…. just brilliant! Spoken like someone that doesn't play a sith. Sith's can't just bite and do something too quickly. There's the lovely bite lag. Then there's the toxin levels to contend with that deplete with each use of the toxin, and take time to regenerate. Oh, and don't forget the time it takes for the toxin to take affect, if it does at all.
> The other bites.. well they are NEVER used because why use them when you can just sleep slit ever time?
Again, spoken like someone that doesn't play a sith.
So, before you start talking about how to weaken a race, PLAY ONE FIRST! Then you will see it's a skillful PLAYER using their CHARACTER to the best of their abilities.
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Sleep toxin should only work if using it to initiate combat, that's about the only thing i have to say. leave the fucking sith alone after that. they suck almost as bad as minotaurs.
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I didn't think I would stir things up this badly. I just wanted the Sith to have a small power down. I guess i didn't really think that many people had that big of a problem with the Venom Toxin (sleep). I'll be honest, I use the venom toxin for 2 things killing players and big mobs for their eq. The venom toxin is unfair for the sith, i'll admit that. I'm perfectly willing to lose the venom toxin if it ment that the other races were nerfed too. The biggest problem we have is some of the races have too big of an ace in the hole. To be realistic all the races need to be tweaked. most need to be tweaked down.
1-remove the Sith's venom toxin
2-Create a spell for Paladins, Monks and Wizards (just throwing monks in because i think it makes sense) that can see through the Vampire's shape skill (I mean you need a quest item to see through it, That's rediculus)
3-Dwarves need somekind of weakness, i mean crap, they get all those resistances and drowning?
4-humans need something thats good, maybe an extra prac every level
5-each race should have a 9000 point base for hp, mp, and mv (meaning that those 3 should have 9000 points between them) As it stands Vampires have 750 point over that the sith and the dwarves are also over the 9000 point cap. Then there are other races that are under it, like minotars, they are 650 points below it.
6-the Slayers have holy wrath, i think it should be reduced to 15=20% extra damage, but make it where it can affect anything they face. After all, the slayer is suposed to be the holy warrior, if a slayer is fighting it, then that means it needs to die in the eyes of the gods (or make an attack skill like kick). Also, a Slayer should get a racial ablity to see though a vamp's shape skill. After all they were made to kill vampires.
7-Dracons should lose Acid breath. Nothing has that as a weakness and it is another attack that i think they don't need. Hell, i'd almost be willing to argue that they sould lose the gas breath, but Green dragons in d&d have it
The main thing i want to see happen is for the playing ground to level out. As it currently stands some races are just flat out better than the others. I belive that most of the races NEED to be nerfed. A few NEED to be strengthed. After all how many people play humans beyond level 60\. I want the game to be fair, which means most of us get screwed. In the end it will become for fun for all of us. Most people won't like the idea of the character they have worked so hard on get nerfed. But when it happens to everyone then it's balanced. Before anyone thinks i'm attacking them and think they are overpowered remember, i suggested getting rid of the Sith's venom toxin (the sleep toxin), but i think others should lose thier attacks and/or ablitys to.
Thanks
Crawley
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Thank you Myth. That is pretty much been my take on it from day one of the controversy.
That or have an effective block or cure of it. Every other skill/spell in the game A) has something that out and out blocks it from working or B) Has a readily available (non-lucky timing) cure or C) can only be used before combat starts.
In Case of A and B those can be readily countered/dispelled. But there also is chance to re-instate them.
So IMHO, Sith Bite (at least the sleep one) needs A or B or C.
ie
Blackjack has C and A
Sleep has C
Kill has A
Poison, Blind, Web etc all have B (if not a Cure spell for it then the all purpose dispel)
Even Silence if prepared with potions has B. (or if a bard but that is another subject.
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Crawley in general I would agree with you, but,
That true sight spell should be limited only to being in same room with them. And the slayer skill/spell should also be given to vamps as it can be necesarry to see thru slayer shift as well. Though I believe the shift was given to the slayer to account for there anti-vamp ways.
As far as humans? They have nothing and need nothing, they are the base the starting point from which all other races resistances, vulnerabilities +'s and -'s are calculated from. What might be good for them would be the abilitiy to split class (not sure how it would work or be coded), but would allow them to maybe pick and choose a certain # of skills/spells from the sub-classes they were not at the cost of say maybe max % on it and maybe 1 other skill/spell from their chosen subclass being limited to 90%.. Just a rough idea but enought to see where it could go.
Oh and wanted to add, shape in no way helps in actual pk battle. It only helps to catch those unaware and to avoid pk when we want to. And even shaped, someone who is alert and knowledgable will know that it is a shaped vampire and not the mob.
And more I think about it, I would be more in favor of the true sight spell being a remort class, maybe archmage and/or illusionist, adept and or alchemist and ninja and/ or warlord.. Would be the choices that would make sense to me (not necessarily all of them but that give ideas and choices of each remort class.
Dwarfs, that is a tough one, hard to come up with an approprieate weakness for them that could be used against them. Maybe water based spells in general doing more damage, of course then we would need the spells but like i said that is a hard one.
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Red, i aggree with you for the most part. with the exception of the true sight spell being remort only.
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My opinion on this sith matter, (being a sith myself) is that really, the only thing needed is maybe some classes get a counter to venom. Thats it. We suck enough as it is. So maybe a counter for venom that has a neccesary lag period after using the counter could be added. *shrug* maybe my opinions stupid. But honestly, do what Xevire said. Play the race before commenting them.
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Warning: Pardon for the length. 8)
Hrm, let's get something out into the open, that you people, especially Red, don't seem to realize. How many sith characters are being complained about for their toxin usage? From all that I've seen, it's just one sith. And, you know what? The fact he can land his bite on you and inflict toxins should come as no surprise given he's 4th class, has bite either at 99% or Mastered, has toxins well above 90% and knows how to play his character like a bard plays a well-tuned instrument.
Frankly, all this bitching and moaning about the affects of toxins is the WRONG focus of any kind of adjustment. If anything needs adjusting, it's everything before the toxin takes hold that needs to be fixed. Everything from a sith/naga lunging at you for a bite to whether they actually BITE you and hard enough to sink their fangs into you.
On a different mud, they have a sith-like race that would put sith here to utter SHAME and you dare call these overpowered? Sure, they have some power, but you are only complaining because there's little to no defense to stop the toxin. Well, to be honest, if a sith/naga can get a bite to land and have the toxin affect you, good for them. That's how it should work. However, my operative word in that last sentence was **if**, meaning there should be ways to prevent the bite from occuring or preventing the bite from being successful, or even the toxin taking hold.
What should be added for toxins are PREVENTATIVE measures, not curative measures, as this game's time scale is TOO damn fast for any viable means of curing toxins. Poisons can take a long while to kill you. Snake venoms, however, are usually meant to kill you rather quickly. Having an hour of game time every minute, that means every second that passes gives a vastly accelerated rate at which the toxins affect you. So, since curative measures make no sense, there should be preventative measures to stop the toxins from ever entering your body. In fact, take a look at many of the spells that we have. Many are preventative spells in nature: sanctuary/light shroud for kill (yes, kill immunities work), calm for blackjack (yes, there's super-strong eq and deception), spell deflection for many spell attacks (yes, they can get through).
So, let's come up with some preventative measures. And no, saying you have to be sneaking and have to start combat to do just the sleep venom is not one of them! There are three points where preventative measures can be added: success of the bite, whether the toxin CAN affect you and when the toxin takes hold. Stop anyone of these and you evade the ultimate affect of the toxin. I say ultimate because even if a toxin, say venom, doesn't do its final result, it could still inflict some level of damages appropriate to the toxin before dissipating.
To prevent the success of the bite, there have to be ways to stop the fangs of a sith from penetrating your skin. As I mentioned, on the other mud, "sith" there would make sith and naga here look like garden snakes. They have a crap load of toxins to use, but one thing that exists is a way to prevent their bites. This is accomplished by applying a berry onto your skin that hardens into a shell. They can't sink their teeth into them. However, given that this would last for a long damn time and the berry was so readily available, it would make that powerful skill rather pointless. So, the highly skilled "sith" characters had the ability to SHATTER this shell. We could use this here. Have ways of creating a tough shell around the body that ALL biting creatures, sith AND vampires alike, have to contend with. This shell could be layered maybe, done with different appliances of this berry (or whatever is implemented to perform this function). This offers a way for people to defend against bite, but at the same time allow for that defense to be undone, to prevent it from utterly nullifying the sith altogether.
But, let's up this even more. How about have armor that is hard (likely based on the material of the armor) hinder the bite attack? Well, this would eventually make it where a sith would have to learn where to bite you to land a bite. Adding optional limb target to the biting command could add some fun. Leaving some eq slots where nothing you put there can be hard enough to block a bite would be interesting. However, those same slots should be THAT much harder to strike, easier for you to defend. Striking certain limbs of the body should make the toxin's progression longer (takes longer to do anything much less take hold).
Let's face it though. If a sith has mastery over bite and the neccesary skills and stats, preventing the bite will be rather difficult, if even possible.
However, say you have been bitten? What happens then? Well, first, are you affected by the toxin? Generally, if the sith biting you is strong enough and has a decent supply of the toxin, the answer is yes. However, as some point out, vampires are supposed to be immune to poisons! Frankly, I think that blanket immunity should be tweaked later, but that's a different story. For the sake of arguments, sure vampires should have SOME level of resistance to toxins, but not all of them. In fact, vampires ARE likely to be quite vulnerable to some toxins, we just don't have them, yet. For the time being, I say vampires (and a select other races!!) should be atmost RESISTANT to toxins. But then, what about other races? Surely they should have somewhat to hinder the onset of toxins, right? Well, that would be correct. As there are anti-venoms and natural ingredients that do the same, similar substances and affects could exist in Sentience. Perhaps have a biological/spell affect that can be used to give temporary (an hour or two) of protection, but only as a way to hinder the toxins from having any affect. The stronger the affect versus the toxin used, the more likely it will stop the toxin.
Of course, if the toxin does land and the game decides it can affect you, what then? Game over? No, not until it successfully takes hold. Various factors could influence when (or IF) a toxin takes hold. As I said before, some races (including vamps) should have a resistance to toxins. This determines not only whether the toxin CAN affect you but how long it can and what happens to it after onset. Toxin resistance would do a couple things: slow the toxin and/or weaken it.
Slowing the toxin down can also be accomplished by being calmed, resting or sleeping, anything that can slow pumping the toxin through your body. Being in a state of frenzy, berserk, haste or even warcry, anything that ACTIVELY increases your pulse rate, should hasten the rate at which the toxin spreads. I say actively because resting with frenzy or haste on shouldn't counter each other, but it SHOULD reduce the effect of resting perhaps. Weakening a toxin? Anyway of doing that? Perhaps the same biological affects that hindered the onset in the first place can also weaken toxins. If weakened enough, either by affects or resistance, when it comes time for the toxin to take hold, it may be too weak to have ANY more affect on you.
What about curing, if you say toxins can be slowed? Yes, if you can manage to SLOW toxins down enough to the point they will take a tick or two to take affect, then you might possibly be able to purge the toxins from your system, either by natural objects or spell affects. But, as there are other ways to prevent toxins from taking hold and by the time it's affecting you, you probably DON'T have time to worry about whether you can cure it yet, curing a toxin should be the last thing you should worry about. Granted, being able to cure it would have a great benefit, but try curing blackjack or killspell. Not too easy, is it?
In the end, my final note: If a sith/naga CAN inject their toxins into you and it takes hold, GAME OVER. So you had better be vigilant in protecting yourself, but don't get too complacent with what you have since you could lose those defenses, typically at a cost of time on the sith's part mind you.
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I think possibly if you made sleep take a longer time to take affect, but possibly have an affect per say, every round your hit percentage decreases till the point you are only throwing 1 attack out a round then you go to sleep.
Or if one cure poison is to easy, perhaps you have to cure it every round for
3 rounds or something.
Or, i do like the idea of more secret potion types in the game. Possibly an antivenom potion that takes quite a few ingredients. That leads to some interesting quests, perhaps a new snake mob that drops a venomous fang yadayada.
I think what the complaint here is when your pking and throwing out well timed dispels, blinding, healing, etc, they land a bite and its over.
BTW, you mentioned light shroud, that spell REALLY needs a longer affect time, 3 ticks doesnt cut it.
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Hi guys.. I've had a lot of different opinions on this so I'm going to flag this topic to be read later. Currently (sorry to reply without having read the thread), I think there needs to be a sort of a counter to the sith's toxins, somewhat like cure poison, which gives you a shot at surviving if you've been attacked with them. I'll be sure to read over this when I have a minute to consider the whole issue before I add or change anything though.
:)
S
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Xevira sounds like to me you just said exactly the same thing I did about the A, B or C. You just elaborated more. :)
Yes, and at this point and time it is only one sith that "is being complained about" . That is because at this point in time only one sith has the hp required to stand up to 3 or 4 rounds of being beat upon by a high level weapon (flaming or otherwise).
And as I previously stated, no other 4th class race or class has an abiliity that will out and out end combat and allow a slit throat type action. One that can effectively kill a fully remorted char from 100%+ health and does not have a "block". Kill spell has Sanctuary/Light Shroud. Blackjack has calm/super_strong. Maze totally removes the target from the area hence preventing them from being killed (which is a pussy way to prevent the archmage from being killed but again another subject) Momentary darkness in effect blinds everyone in the room but all have the option to then leave the room or otherwise reengage in a fight depending on skills etc.
Another option rather than remove or make it blockable would be to make other races have similar abilities that CAN NOT be stopped, hell give Vamp bite even a chance of full paralysis that would fully paralyze the opponent for a tick or two and just imagine the complaining. And lore would support such a thing, but game balance doesnt. Unless you give similiar fight stopping ability to all.
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> Xevira sounds like to me you just said exactly the same thing I did about the A, B or C. You just elaborated more.
Not really. I gave reasonable solutions rather than an out right crippling of an entire race as most people are trying to push forward. :D
> And as I previously stated, no other 4th class race or class has an abiliity that will out and out end combat and allow a slit throat type action. One that can effectively kill a fully remorted char from 100%+ health and does not have a "block".
Which is why I made the suggestions I did. Not have just one way to block/hinder the toxins (any toxins), but a handful where any one of them can successfully kill a toxin's progression.
But here is another idea. Let's make a **Sith's** venom toxin where it doesn't cause a victim to sleep during combat. I'm sure many of you are going "Yeah, we've all said that". However, let's make a **Naga's** venom toxin capable of such a feat. Then, if a 4th class Naga can take a fully remorted character from full health to nothing from one bite, no one has anything…. **ANYTHING** to bitch about. To compensate the **Sith** for the toxin, let's make venom cause another affect that can carry over to **Naga's**…. hr/dr loss, varying based on the strength of the toxin on a level vs level basis.
> … hell give Vamp bite even a chance of full paralysis that would fully paralyze the opponent for a tick or two and just imagine the complaining.
I don't see anything wrong with that, provided their bites are as susceptible to the restrictions I've suggested on Sith bites. I mean, you try sinking your fangs into solid steel armor.
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So if a 4th class remort naga can beat anybody in one bite then what the hell is the point? Woohoo, 4500+ hp and im dead. GG
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Llauf, it seems you wholly missed the point that Xevira was so eloquently making… We should institute a vulnerability rating on armor, so that armor itself would block sith fangs and prevent your __horrible__ demise, a spell or skill that would slow the effects of the toxin, perhaps a casting or two of cure poison would lessen the strength of the toxin, racial resistances to toxins, and maybe some sort of added resistance like the shell Xevira mentioned. If you think about it, biting someone with stoneskin would probably hurt the biter… Also, how about adding a way to defang a sith after you pk him, and, using brew, make a dose of antivenin for emergencies.
One thing that I would like to see changed is toxins not overwriting each other. Cumulative toxin bites should be a big deal, instead of canceling themselves out. Having a separate effect for each toxin would be nice, and having some sort of affect to combat statistics such as AC, hit roll and damage roll would be nice base effects. Sleep toxin should make an opponent sluggish in battle, possibly reducing hr and AC, and an opponent whos body is coursing with paralyzing toxins seems like they would be easier to hit.
I think having a many pronged way to resist the sith's one true power would be interesting, especially if it involved equipment. Then you'd all go don your sith hunting suits and try and defang __me__ to get my precious super naga-antivenin…. Just watch your backs :twisted:
:rifle:
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~~@llauf:~~
> So if a 4th class remort naga can beat anybody in one bite then what the hell is the point? Woohoo, 4500+ hp and im dead. GG
So.. you want it where anyone can beat up a 4th class remort? Frankly, the idea that a mort, or even a 3rd class remort can take down a 4th class remort is a **joke**, yes. They should be a force to be reckoned with, not something you can easily push around. Maybe I exaggerated with the 4th class naga being able to take down a full remorted character in one bite, but I wasn't far off the mark. An arrogant remort 4th can become careless and monotonous in their PKing style, an easy mark for someone that's trained in taking down just about any target, using their weaknesses against them.
To venture from the topic a slight bit: I seem to notice alot of you not wanting any kind of true balancing being done. You only want YOUR damn character to be the unbeatable one. If any other race/class has so much as a slight chance they can beat you, you raise a hissy fit wanting that race/class totally crippled without so much as any constructive input on how to fix the situation in a reasonable manner.
(Pssst for those that didn't catch my humor, I never said that a 4th class remort shouldn't be killable by lesser characters. I just said it would be a joke as they should know better. :D )
Back on topic:
~~@pravus:~~
> If you think about it, biting someone with stoneskin would probably hurt the biter…
Stone skin is an excellent example of a protective shell. The idea that a sith (even vampires) can hurt their fangs with this is good. :> Of course, if there's ever a gargoyle or some other stone-skinned race, they would be practically unbitable. Maybe even have the possibility the stone skin could defang the sith/vamp, with a chance the fang would remain lodged in there. If it does, it could leech whatever was being injected into the victim, unless it's removed, kinda like a bee stinger. If the fang just becomes hurt, it could result in the fang becoming loose, which means it can be pulled out. Or, it could result in the fang merely being damaged, reducing the flow of toxins or even biting success.
Another idea for NAGA's… have a toxin spit, where they can spit out raw toxins, not the kind that can work in the blood, but a more poisonous, acidic type spit. Capable of blinding a victim if it stays on them too long, provided the victim can wipe it off. Capable of melting pickable door locks and barred doors (also add an unbarring ability to highwaymen but that's another issue).
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so would this mean the implementation of a "wiping" skill? *cracks up*
but seriously, Pravus and Xev have the right idea here i think. I have nothing to add at the moment, but one thing. If we have things like stone skin affecting things like resistances to specific skills and spells, then perhaps we should consider making spells like that less common. (which in turn would create the necessity for some mobs to be powered doen probably). Nowadays, things like stone skin, shield, sanc… They're pretty much essential after you hit about level 15\. (really before that, but most people don't have access to it before that)
it's just something that i think should be mulled over...
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I dont want to argue but I have added my suggestions. And I dont want my race or any other race to be better than others. Thats the point of this disscusion, one race is clearly over cheesed. I do however like the stone skin idea and defanging of siths for antivenom.
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Hi guys, Ive scanned this topic for a bit. My conclusion is mostly like Ri and Xev said: there's no specific to downgrade the sith toxin ability, but some counter/preventative measure should be added. E.g. a high piercing armor rating, or some antidote which when taken can reverse the effects of the toxin.
Currently whether or not a sith bite works depends on a few things: level of attacker and victim, as well as their dexterity ratings and skills. However piercing armor isn't included in this. Perhaps if we made people with a higher piercing armor rating a little more resistant to the bite of the sith it would help things. I don't think getting immunity from this on any level would be a good thing because it would take away from one of the potentially coolest racial skills (if a little bit underdeveloped so far) in the game.
The second form of check I would propose would be a cure or a resistance for the effects of the toxin. This would also have to be restricted (e.g. not just a cure poison spell) because then people could just set it on a trigger once again knocking down the usefulness of the toxin skill. My idea for this would be an herb that if ingested before the battle would provide a temporary immunity/high resistance to the toxin. Having to take it before combat action might seem unappealing to some people, but I think it's the best way of making sure we don't ruin the sith character as their toxins are in actuality supposed to be real strong. Edit->we could let the herb have other beneficial effects, as well (maybe increased combat dexterity or move regain or something).
What does everyone think of these potential fixes for the problem? Ill leave this topic around for a bit longer to allow everyone to contribute.
8)
S.
