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Bards, as per how they are set up right now, are based on Celtic lore. They are the lowest of the Druid sect. Their job, was to learn and ORALLY recite all knowledge and history. They were advisors, historians. The power that they conveyed as primarily through the voice. Musical instruments were learned to enhance such a skill. They entertained and enthralled people with their voice, sometimes using instruments. If anything, using an instrument should increase the use of songs played now, not be a requirement.
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speaking of instruments..instead of whining about us (ok not ME us but one of me us) having to hold them to use music..how about we discuss the fact we haaaave no pretty sparkley powerful ones…talk amongst yourself *dimples in grin*
ps NO an old school Tuba is NOT cool...i mean..common.......its a Tuba!
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Well, I would like to go to the part where Bards lose there ability to attack while playing/singing a song. If any one hasn't noticed, we lose it. So, what could someone do in that time?! How about, stop using the weapon, then they hold the instrument. and then they play it? And then that would make sense when wearing one, you get a 1/3 playing time, you wouldn't have to take the time to wear the weapon that way. So, there's my thought.
Secondly, going a class and making it required to wear an item is lame. No other class requires you to use an item for the class to be successful. Bards are a very tough class I agree, but making them lose shield block, and dual wield, completely takes away their power. The silence or blind requirements make much more sense, instead of having one idea that completely takes most of the success of a bard.
Also, spell deflection is the only useful skill of an illusionist. Take the ability to use bard songs with it, and it becomes utterly useless. Why would someone even want to cast it on themselves, if they can’t quaff a potion, they can’t brandish through it, they can’t, cast through it, can’t recite though it, and can’t play songs thought it. It has a 1/4th chance getting passed by spell affects. And when dispel magic makes it past, spell deflection usually stays on, and if sanctuary is removed, you are screwed, because removing all, and wearing all, also is deflected for those who don’t realize this. So this would also make illusionist a worthless skill. So my point of all this is to instead of being biased, why not try other successful means of toning down bards.
Emtae
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My thought on this whole matter.,,,, Spell Deflection should only work on magics that come from outside the aura.. ie other peoples (including music) and scrolls. Spells cast by the one affected are from within the aura and if any thing should have a better chance of affecting as the aura holds it in. Or potions as the magic is coming from within the one who quaffs it.
If not all spells cast by the one affected things like dispel, or cancellation cast by him should definately work as these are throwing off of things that are "inside" the aura. (seeing as how they must have been cast first).
As it is, casting spell deflection is just to powerfull as an offensive spell. So if the above adjustments are not made just make it so it is only castable on yourself, then bards would be able to use it for defense, etc.
And i will give prior props for good class selection but atm, probably the most overpowered (ie good without need for good player skills) would be:
A titan, bard, wizard, illusionists, sage –--- spell deflection (music to heal self thru it), Deception to prevent circle, bs, bj, and dirt kick, and if dirt kick does get thru, or a flamine weapon manages to blind,,,,,,,, healing hands to cure it.
Just MY IMHO..
Anyways,,,,,,
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I think Ithilidin put it pretty well in saying that insturments should be used to enhance bard song, as an acompanyment to the bard's voice. It would be pretty cool if a bard's race would set up their vocal qualities, and change how effective some songs were. Also, the way silence works now, using an insturment would allow a bard who has lost her voice through silence to still use bardly magic with an insturment. An insturment wear spot could be added, but while actually using the insturment to cast spells, it seems to me that attacking with weapons would be much more difficult.
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Well, adding an instrument slot for a bard would just make them even more powerful. That's just giving any person with an os tuba extra stats, and some instruments other than tubas have stats too. Though, if you want to do that, go right ahead. I think if a bard is silenced, they should lose their ability to use songs, unless holding an instrument. If a bard is blinded, the have to use their voice. If a bard is holding an instrument, an isn't silenced, music will cast 1/3 the time. Maybe if sage, being blinded will have no affect if blinded.
Emtae
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I think that being able to target a bard's weapon with spells(silence, fireball) or weapons would be a nice way to counter the bard's magical songs, and if a specific insturment either allowed new songs to be used, or a specific insturment would be required for certain songs(ie. a demonic fiddle for curse of the abyss). Maybe even balance it by having some insturments be great for offensive songs(such as my demonic fiddle example) but totally nerf[increased chance of failure or slower casting time or reduced effectiveness] healing/buffing songs since it __is__ made from negative energy filled demonflesh.
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Well, the whole point of going bard is for its powers to attack with songs. They lose out on a lot of defence and offence from going bard. Rouges, and assassins gain a lot of stuff when going Ninja, so just limiting a Bard to one song per instrument seems too harsh. Some of the bard songs are being toned down, mainly Curse of the abyss. The lose of Energy drains over power will weaken bards cheapness a lot.
I didn make a comment of Bards wearing instruments. I actually think it would be a semi-good idea. Just remove quivers and Bows/cross bows, and put the instrument in that slot. Seeing as some people use arrows etc, and people who can't even use a bow, or a cross bow are using the slots, which is kinda of bs but any way. At least if you are going to let bards wear the instruments, take away the arrows so they just aren't gaining more and more slots. However, I don't think it is a bad Idea to let a bard wear it in the weapons slots either, I just think it is a bad Idea to limit the bards music to only play music when wearing it in a weapons slot.
Emtae
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I'm goig to speak my peace on bards and that's gonna be all that is heard from me. I know bards are a very touchy subject in the game. personaly, i think that bards should be subject to every defence that all mages are subject to. silence, spell shield, blind (i'm pretty sure bards are at the minute), counterspell, and anyothers i'm forgettting or plain just don't know. I really have no problem with bards being able to cast 1 to 3 spells with one song. But, I can't defend against it, unless i blind the bard. Not to mention, that druids had the ablity to scribe and brew multible spells at once taken away, but bards can cast three spells at once. All i'm asking for is a defence that works on bards that's just as common as all of the others.
There, i said my peace…I'm done
Crawley
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Okay, I'm not giving any real input, because I don't play a bard, and everything I have to say has basically been said before.
However, there is one thing I would like to address regarding previous posts.
When you're talking about the balance between subclasses, Remort subclasses should have absolutely nothing to do with it. That is a matter of balance between remort subclasses, and a completely different issue. Please, do not use remort subclass options as a method of balancing mortal subclasses. If you wish to discuss the balance between remort subclasses, that is, of course, a valid issue, but it should not be directly related to your mortal subclass comparisons. Mortal subclasses should be balanced on their own, and remort subclasses, likewise.
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Thanks Riane, thats a great point. :) Also, nowhere in my post did I say each insturment would be limited to evoking 1 bard song/spell. Also, its hardly a problem to swap insturments so you could benefit from the healing magic of say… a celestial banjo, or whatever. That way people won't always be wearing a silly os tuba, because tubas aren't good for all types of music/songs, and that would separate the bards from the good bards who win at pk.
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Ok ok ok :D I saw this and had to respond….
~~@Emtae:~~
> Secondly, going a class and making it required to wear an item is lame. No other class requires you to use an item for the class to be successful. Bards are a very tough class I agree, but making them lose shield block, and dual wield, completely takes away their power. The silence or blind requirements make much more sense, instead of having one idea that completely takes most of the success of a bard.
No other class requires you to USE an item to get benefit outta something? Ok, explain how wilderness spear style will work without wielding a spear. Or how can a warrior be successful without using a weapon! (Hand to hand aside, it sucks atm, but that's another issue). What about parry? You need to use a weapon to use that skill. Or shield block? Last I checked, that required a shield. So, the fact that a bard would have to hold an instrument to play music on it shouldn't come as a big surprise. Name one feasible *instrument*, existing or otherwise, a bard can play that doesn't require some holding (aside from a piano, harp and the big procussion instruments.. those are big instruments and can't be held!). After that, count how many instruments you have to hold to play.
And since when would a bard lose dual wield or shield block? Those are warrior skills, bards never had it. And a bard doesn't have to be holding an instrument all the time, just when they wanted to play music that requires an instrument (ok, atm, that's all music).
A tough class? I remember when Bards were *LAUGHED* at cause they sucked. It wasn't until a few punks went bard and started abusing the flaws of their principle skill, that people started bitching loudly.
And on the subject of taking away the success of the bard with one idea? What about silence on mages! I mean, crap, a silenced mage can't cast spells! OMG! THEY CAN'T CAST SPELLS! HOW WILL THEY SURVIVE?! Simple, they deal with it. Silencing a mage typically cripples them, that's why it's there and requires a reagent/catalyst.
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OK, my point was, that in order to use the whole point of a bard, you HAVE to use an instrument. Well, if making a bard hold an instrument does get used. The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield. I am just trying to make a point, that I doubt people will like bard any more if that happens. Which is why I suggested the blind/ silence options. To try them out at least.
Emtae
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~~@Emtae:~~
> The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield.
I just want you to know how illogical that statement sounds. If a lich holds an instrument and a shield, what are they going to be able to hit with? NOTHING! Both of their hands will be full. It will amount to the same thing every other race will have if they have to hold something and a shield.
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~~@Xevira:~~
> ~~@Emtae:~~
>
> > The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield.
>
> I just want you to know how illogical that statement sounds. If a lich holds an instrument and a shield, what are they going to be able to hit with? NOTHING! Both of their hands will be full. It will amount to the same thing every other race will have if they have to hold something and a shield.
You could smack the shit out of someone with a shield, if you really wanted to 8)
I added the ability to play withou holding an instrument basically, because a lot of people complained that bards were a bit weak… if you play during combat, its kind of assumed that you sheath your sword or what have you while playing, thus the loss of attacks.
I'm not sure if bards are a bad class anymore. Sorry I havent read through this entire post, but I wanted to get that out so people know why it was originally done... shit, I hope I haven't gone completely off topic. Sorry if i have.
I htink maybe, we should go a different direction with them than juts h aving the pre-set songs? I think having a few songs of lore, and stuff, is great but maybe you shuld be able to make/play your own songs with different affects. Basically expanding the bard's musical capabilities, maybe let them sing or something of the sort. can anyone suggest a reason/way to or not to do this?
Perhaps we could give them a somewhat limited sort of lore-master ability (like Karnak. ) limited meaning, that if a bard has been somewheer before, they can track certain items somehow. Could we substitute this for having to hold the instrument you play?
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Here's my suggestions on changing bards. Allow them to sing to cast their magic songs, with the bards' % in music allowing them to sing up to medium powered songs. For more powerful songs, they would have to wear an instrument to play along with some of the sung parts. Specific instruments(my guess would be mostly wind instruments) like trumpets, flutes, tubas, etc that require breath to play would cast specific songs, but couldn't be used to acompany a bard's voice. An acompany or instrument skill would determine the power or maybe the availability of medium to high powered songs, or maybe different instrument qualities could enhance sung magic. Instruments could have volume, musical range, and key(average tonality) values, and perhaps combinations of range/key combined with different sung parts could alter the effect of songs or invoke unique songs. Volume could affect the power of some songs, or maybe even allow the song's effects to cary over room borders. It would be really cool, in my opinion at least, to collect special/quest musical instruments to make a bard very versatile… And a magical expanding baby grand piano of madness would be cool to whip out and start jamming on to destroy your foes... not to mention it would be soooooo cool if a formation of bards could play together for tremendous magical effect... ~whew~
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I personally only see a few things needed to make bards fair. Tone curse of the abyss drastically down for one.
If player is holding instrument then increase speed and affect level by 10%
If player is not holding then sing with decreased speed and affect level by 10%
If player is blind check for holding instrument, if no instrument sing with 30% failure rate.
If player silenced check for holding instrument, no instrument, no play.
Some other checks could be to gather how many targets there are, and for every target past 1 add a 5% failure rate, represented by.. stage fright or what not.
Another idea is to give racial charisma to every class and have that affect the affect level slightly. i.e. elves would be the highest on a scale of 1-3 having a 3 so theyd get a +2 to the affect level where as a lich would be 1 and have a -1 to affect level.
Just some ideas.
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Pravus's idea does pose some interesting possibilities, though substanial work for the imms to revamp the instruments.
Some simple suggestions if that route was taken:
Brass Instruments-Would have high AC
Wind Instruments (flutes i.e.)-Perhaps a speed increase of some sort
Percussion Instruments- Increased damage
Stringed Instruments-Reduction of music cost
No real theme going on but if bards are going to have to hold the instruments to play, making instruments that play more of a role might be cool. You could also make it so you can play only certain songs on an instrument, which would be a balancing nightmare of course, but you could hardcode the spell into the instrument so it behaves sort of like a wand or what not.
I.E.
Llauf bangs a drum solo on his War Drum!
The earth trembles beneath your feet!
The earth trembles beneath your feet!
The earth trembles beneath your feet!
or
Llauf plucks an epic ballad on his Lute!
You feel slower!
You feel weaker!
Alot of possibilities.
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Here is what music needs to do:
Drop all offensive affects. No fireball. No lightning. No energy drain. I can't even find a reason why faerie fire should work.
Music should affect mood and mentality.
Music should put people to sleep while playing continuously. You stop playing to attack, person wakes up. It should affect things like inducing a frenzy. It should slow and hasten a person. Given a stretch, music can make people fly ie. Peter Pan in giving good feelings makes you fly.
Sung cords.
These are sung, if you couldn't guess. Pure and simple, they do damage. I know I made a post about bards somewhere and put this into it. These are special attacks, and subject to silence spell. Some could be focused to a single person. The others would hit the entire room, making it risky.
I am too lazy to go searching for the thread, so suffice it to say, not many had objections to it and should be revived to continue this discussion.
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~~@Syn:~~
> ~~@Xevira:~~
>
> > ~~@Emtae:~~
> >
> > > The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield.
> >
> > I just want you to know how illogical that statement sounds. If a lich holds an instrument and a shield, what are they going to be able to hit with? NOTHING! Both of their hands will be full. It will amount to the same thing every other race will have if they have to hold something and a shield.
> You could smack the shit out of someone with a shield, if you really wanted to 8)
>
> I added the ability to play withou holding an instrument basically, because a lot of people complained that bards were a bit weak… if you play during combat, its kind of assumed that you sheath your sword or what have you while playing, thus the loss of attacks.
>
> I'm not sure if bards are a bad class anymore. Sorry I havent read through this entire post, but I wanted to get that out so people know why it was originally done... shit, I hope I haven't gone completely off topic. Sorry if i have.
>
> I htink maybe, we should go a different direction with them than juts h aving the pre-set songs? I think having a few songs of lore, and stuff, is great but maybe you shuld be able to make/play your own songs with different affects. Basically expanding the bard's musical capabilities, maybe let them sing or something of the sort. can anyone suggest a reason/way to or not to do this?
>
> Perhaps we could give them a somewhat limited sort of lore-master ability (like Karnak. ) limited meaning, that if a bard has been somewheer before, they can track certain items somehow. Could we substitute this for having to hold the instrument you play?
Ok, my reasons for requiring bards to hold instruments for the most part are 1) 95+% of all instruments require you to hold it to play them very well, for most people. 2) another is my issues with how holding things in MERCs are … so illogical...
A fully armed person dualing or weapon+shield, or even wielding+holding can still use a light (which the game says we HOLD it, regardless what anyone restrings the item into) which would mean they have three hands. Add in the bard's instrument usage, that's using four hands! As I said, that's an issue I have with MERCs in general.
