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I think both the punishment for Red and Sirrus are acceptable, and I'm actually a little disgusted at his behavior. I know he will curse and rant and scream, and try to take his few friends with him, but I don't think it will have a large negetive effect on the player base, as 1) Red's not very well liked, and 2) Everyone knows what he does is wrong, including Red himself. I also like the idea of the comment file, and the redefining of the rules, laying down in black and white what is acceptable and what isn't. That will certainly make it easier for punishments. Being a hard-ass, I like the three-strikes rule (and on occasion, the one-strike!)
On one personal note, being as Sirrus and I share an IP, I really hope that it'll be his character frozen, and not the IP blocked or something like that 8)
*Also, since Wroth's comment posted while reading, the idea of resetting all of Red's stats/levels for all chars is definately interesting… and kind of poetic justice - all the newbs he terrifies would be able to strike back for scaring the hell out of them.
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Just for clarification, will anything be happening to Redraven's church as well? (Other than the pneuma wipe)
Along with that, I'm in favor of stripping his gold and items (at the very least non-quest items) as well.
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Quite frankly, I'd rather Redraven be reset to a fresh from creation newbie and put back into Alendith. That means nothing he's done he gets to keep. Not one bit. No house. No church. No stats. Not a damn thing. Also, make him PK all the time (as was done to Bashae I believe at one time). And any futher instance of cheating would be immediate deletion. As Wroth mentioned, his behavior warrants harsh punishments. If he wanted to keep his characters, he should have played by the rules.
I expect him to stay for an hour atmost, then vanish in disgust. ;)
Also, delete any backup pfiles that may exist for him.
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Hmm good points made by all. I was going to leave him one char out of mercy, but I am leaning more and more towards just resetting him to level 1 with a note to him explaining why he was punished, and including the evidence. I think I'll give it a few days of thought (and a few days to allow other peeps to post their opinion).
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Hey ya'll. I know I haven't been around much especially as of late, but don't take my absence as apathy towards Sentience. I may not be completely in the loop, but I have been around enough to see what Redraven (and others with similar attitudes) has done to the game. And despite his rare shining effects, he's caused many problems in his day and done his best to drive people that don't revere him. My personal rant being done, I have a few other things I may be able to add to this discussion.
Intriguing. I replied to the wrong message so I can't see the original post, but I'm gonna see what I can do and add on if I need to.
Redraven has been caught more than 3 times (and punished) for not only multiplaying (at least 2 of those), but botting (once), and passing off/auctioning items to himself (more than 3). Each time, he seemed to wait just long enough for other people to start causing problems so he was out of the limelight.
Sirrus was deleted at one point for a large offence and has been in trouble as much as Redraven for other offenses.
Alya was caught helping Redraven on at least 2 occasions with passing off items (and punished once) Although these have been isolated incidences ranging over the last 2-3 years (if memory serves).
I don't remember who the Z character is, so I can't offer anything else there.
Given all of this, my suggestion is a revision of the rules similar to what was already posted. It is vital to punish before changing the rules because if you can fit the crimes to the current rules, the newer mortals will be given a chance to see that we aren't out to get them.
Also, I propose rather than deleting his churches, you punish only him by banning him from those churches. This will allow someone to step up if need be. This may not be an issue based on how active these churches are, but if there are other active members, they most likely donated time and energy as well.
I think deletion of his alts is a good way to go. Even stripping him of his stats (pneuma, qp, items, etc) is fair, however, I would save resetting his character to level 1 as a sort of trump card in the case of attitude. Make it very clear to him that it could be worse. With a 120 remort (even bare-stats) there is still respect and the potential to get decent again.
As for Sirrus and Alya, I suggest the same punishment for both since they are (were) both very aware of the rules.
Finally, I've heard rumors of tokens being implemented. If they are in fact ready, what are the chances that we can add a set of 5 or so tokens to each individual item (this may not be feasible with RAM and whatever else) that record IP's and character names or something similar. This could cause problems with people on the same IP that are playing fair, but maybe there are ways around that?
Goodonya!
eRT!!!@
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Red is a repeat offender and he does it in subtle ways unless you really look at the logs it's often hard to catch him which is why I requested at his last offence if his actions could be logged, harsh but he's proved I'm afraid repeatedly that he cannot be trusted to at least follow the rules of the game.
Syn up to now I have been investigating and implementing punishment issues in part of my role, if you think that this is better to pass on then pass it on if your not happy with what I do but I am more then happy to continue with it :P
With Sirrius I agree with your actions of two weeks and the other two I think maybe at least a weeks freezing, Zion logs have stated that he was aware of what he was doing and it is a clearer and more deffinate break of the rules then the one of Sirrius , I also believe that there may have been more logs mentioned of him breaking the rules so I will chase that up and see if the person who mentioned this can also post those too
I also agree with the rule alterations there are quite a few loopholes with them at the moment,
Back to Red I also think his level should be reduced to one as well as all of his stats and gold, if cheating has helped him gain levels and advance with his items and ect then we should also take this ability away from him.
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I would have to say that I agree with everyone's suggestions so far, and being thjat everything mentioned was along the lines of what I would have suggested, I guess I have nothing further to add other than, I strongly agree that he NEEDS a harsh punishment. So my official suggestion would be "all of the above."
-H
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And to think, I thought Redraven had quit doing that shit a little over a year ago. Oh well. Personally, this is how I think judgement for Redraven should go:
Delete all characters aside from Redraven (Xtrasp, Lobaroja, and that one funky Q named one I can't remember, and I'm sure he has others, just keep an eye on his ip).
Strip him of all gold, pneuma, diety points, and quest points. I know before he was caught by an immortal who is no longer here for using redraven to get quest items for xtrasp to turn in during a global. I almost think it was Elden.
Turn his PK flag on permanently to where he cannot remove it. Bashae, a past repeat offender, had the same punishment.
Set his hp/m/mv to 1/1/1 base, just like Armand was punished previously for one occurance of cheating (not a handful like Red).
Set all of his mastered skills/spells to 1\. If they are mastered, he probably botted them. That is the only way to see it with his recharge spell.
Strip him of all of his equipment, including quest items. He no longer deserves them.
Leave him at level 120, but remove his PK flag and give him the BOTTER flag. (If memory serves, the botter flag makes the person attackable by ANY player, but they cannot in turn attack any player).
It seems harsh, but how many years has he repeatedly broken the rules?
As for Alya and Sirrus:
Give Sirrus a two week freeze. He has other chars he can play if he choses. Also, give Alya a one week freeze. She has not broken the rules as much as Sirrus, but we cannot just slap her on the wrist. After the frozen time is over, give Alya the BOTTER flag for a month as a "probationary" time frame. Remove the PK flag from Sirrus and give him the BOTTER flag for a month as well.
Maybe I'm a hardass. But I've seen many people cheat their way through this game and not get into trouble. Now, my voice can be heard, and I hopefully won't see it happen anymore.
A note on that: The reason many were allowed to continuously cheat was because they had immortal friends (of which none are still immortals, by the way).
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About one of the auction incidents.. I was speaking w/ Sirrus today about different armor, and he mentioned the sleeves that were an example of Red's underhanded doings.. Sirrus says he gave Red his old sleeves, and kept the ones from the auction. Is it possible that that's what happened? There's not an auction begin/end time on there, so I don't know, but when we were talking about his EQ, he described the sleeves as the "ones he got off auc" when I asked where to get them.
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Yar I already told syn about that conversation in my last pm regarding this.
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~~@Aradia:~~
> About one of the auction incidents.. I was speaking w/ Sirrus today about different armor, and he mentioned the sleeves that were an example of Red's underhanded doings.. Sirrus says he gave Red his old sleeves, and kept the ones from the auction. Is it possible that that's what happened? There's not an auction begin/end time on there, so I don't know, but when we were talking about his EQ, he described the sleeves as the "ones he got off auc" when I asked where to get them.
I noticed that too. When I get home I'll look at the logs to get a clearer picture, since the log of this starts a little bit after it should.
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Comment files, the change to the multiplay rules, and the overall audit of the game rules are all great suggestions. I wonder about listing the rules in order of importance, however. Is it wise to announce to the players that some rules are less important (presumably more ignorable) than others? As for Redraven's punishment in particular, I have to defer to others who are more familiar with his history and with punishments in general since I have had very little involvement with either.
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With his history, I believe he should have no character above first class, first mort.
All gold, dp, PK stats and pneuma stripped.
All lockers and items purged.
All stats and skills dropped to 1 each (being str, dex, hp, mana, sword, chill touch, etc). House recalls removed.
All church commands disabled except for church talk.
A flag put on his characters so they cannot get transfers from churches.
Then, if he decides to cheat again, put on a botter flag on all his characters.
Offense after that, delete his characters one by one, starting with his favourite and working down.
It is a greater insult to keep the characters and have them reduced in this way than to be out right deleted.
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I feel that keeping his character at level 120 and giving him 1/1/1 stats is more of a punishment than setting him to level 1 with 1/1/1 stats. Being 120, you cannot level to gain stats, therefor you must train, and quest to get pracs. Armand had that punishment given to him and it took him many months to get his stats where he was playable again.
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If one were to give him large magnitude negative point values on all the important counters: practices, trains, quest points, deity points, pneuma…. I can see that as being a major road block on reattaining any kind of prominence. Mean I know.
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Hey everyone,
I think I've allowed enough time on here for everyone who wants to pitch in their thoughts (or noncommitment) on the matter, and I think this situation is ready to be resolved. I've established a final decree that is appropriate, and will be issued by Areo and/or Kit since they were the ones who did the most work assembling evidence of this.
First I'd like to reply to a few people. I am very sorry that I can't address everything in everyone's post, but that's really just a time issue and I've used up a lot sleuthing stuff on this, so I picked out the points which stand out most.
~~@Aradia:~~
> On one personal note, being as Sirrus and I share an IP, I really hope that it'll be his character frozen, and not the IP blocked or something like that
I generally regard IP bans as a last resort for 2 reasons (1) it's not very effective if your person can use a different IP range (mostly the people who have nothing to do but hack MUDs fall into this category) and (2) it tends to ban people who weren't meant to be punished. I can assure freezing him won't affect your char(s) in anyway.
~~@Ertai:~~
> Also, I propose rather than deleting his churches, you punish only him by banning him from those churches. This will allow someone to step up if need be. This may not be an issue based on how active these churches are, but if there are other active members, they most likely donated time and energy as well.
Very definitely true. I've come up with a reasonable solution to this below.
~~@Ertai:~~
> As for Sirrus and Alya, I suggest the same punishment for both since they are (were) both very aware of the rules.
I'm going to extend their freeze from 2 weeks to a month. I wasn't aware that they'd been caught before. Also a very harsh warning is in order, since if they are caught again they will be at a point much like red is in now.
~~@Ertai:~~
> Finally, I've heard rumors of tokens being implemented. If they are in fact ready, what are the chances that we can add a set of 5 or so tokens to each individual item (this may not be feasible with RAM and whatever else) that record IP's and character names or something similar. This could cause problems with people on the same IP that are playing fair, but maybe there are ways around that?
Not rumors, tokens are in fact implemented.
This is definitely a good idea. Tokens arent probably the best for this since all that's really required is a player name and IP, and we can make a different structure for that to save memory. We'll code it in as soon as possible.
~~@Kitty:~~
> Back to Red I also think his level should be reduced to one as well as all of his stats and gold, if cheating has helped him gain levels and advance with his items and ect then we should also take this ability away from him.
Although you seem to have a good point here, as someone else mentioned it would be HARDER to get your stats back if you were 120, since you couldn't level up to get them. I think it would be fitting to give him 1/1/1 stats and a PK flag which he can't toggle off with his 0 pneuma. 8)
~~@Aradia:~~
> About one of the auction incidents.. I was speaking w/ Sirrus today about different armor, and he mentioned the sleeves that were an example of Red's underhanded doings.. Sirrus says he gave Red his old sleeves, and kept the ones from the auction. Is it possible that that's what happened? There's not an auction begin/end time on there, so I don't know, but when we were talking about his EQ, he described the sleeves as the "ones he got off auc" when I asked where to get them.
Here is the log information you are looking for.
Sun Aug 6 14:23:35 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:38 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:41 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:42 2006 :: Log Sirrus: who
Sun Aug 6 14:23:45 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:48 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: get sleeve use
Sun Aug 6 14:23:48 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: auction sleeve
Sun Aug 6 14:23:52 2006 :: Log Sirrus: auc info
Sun Aug 6 14:23:56 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: l
Sun Aug 6 14:23:58 2006 :: Log Sirrus: eq
Sun Aug 6 14:24:02 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: mount roch
Sun Aug 6 14:24:02 2006 :: Log Sirrus: sta
Sun Aug 6 14:24:04 2006 :: Log Sirrus: c id arm
Sun Aug 6 14:24:11 2006 :: Log Sirrus: auc bid 100
Sun Aug 6 14:24:16 2006 :: Log Sirrus: rest couch
Sun Aug 6 14:24:18 2006 :: Log Sirrus: rest couch
Sun Aug 6 14:24:20 2006 :: Log Sirrus: rest tub
Sun Aug 6 14:24:33 2006 :: Log Redraven: remove wings
Sun Aug 6 14:24:34 2006 :: Log Redraven: c id wings
Sun Aug 6 14:24:39 2006 :: Log Sirrus: get slee silk
Sun Aug 6 14:24:40 2006 :: Log Sirrus: sta
Sun Aug 6 14:24:41 2006 :: Log Redraven: give wings sirr
Sun Aug 6 14:24:41 2006 :: Log Sirrus: c id slee
Sun Aug 6 14:24:55 2006 :: Log Redraven: auction info
Sun Aug 6 14:24:57 2006 :: Log Sirrus: put slee silk
Sun Aug 6 14:24:58 2006 :: Log Sirrus: auc info
Sun Aug 6 14:25:02 2006 :: Log Sirrus: c id rav
Sun Aug 6 14:25:05 2006 :: Log Sirrus: give rav red
Sun Aug 6 14:25:11 2006 :: Log Redraven: drop wings
Sun Aug 6 14:25:14 2006 :: Log Redraven: get wing
Sun Aug 6 14:25:17 2006 :: Log Redraven: look wing
While it may very well be true that he gave Red his old sleeves, it doesn't really make a difference in my opinion. The point is he helped two characters played by the same person to do an equipment transfer, which is illegal despite the fact that it's indirect.
~~@Pollution:~~
> I wonder about listing the rules in order of importance, however. Is it wise to announce to the players that some rules are less important (presumably more ignorable) than others?
I definitely agree with you here; thinking this over it would be a better idea to scramble them up fairly randomly instead.
~~@Qalinosk:~~
> It is a greater insult to keep the characters and have them reduced in this way than to be out right deleted.
Deleting characters is just too much fun. Leaving him a disabled lv120 I think is insulting enough 8).
~~@Kraphin:~~
> I feel that keeping his character at level 120 and giving him 1/1/1 stats is more of a punishment than setting him to level 1 with 1/1/1 stats. Being 120, you cannot level to gain stats, therefor you must train, and quest to get pracs. Armand had that punishment given to him and it took him many months to get his stats where he was playable again.
I am in agreement here. In addition to not being able to get stats back as fast, I don't want to give him a chance to change any of his classes or replay his character in a better way. If he wants to start afresh and not have a reputation of a cheater, it'll have to be a new char, and new name.
~~@Nibelung:~~
> If one were to give him large magnitude negative point values on all the important counters: practices, trains, quest points, deity points, pneuma…. I can see that as being a major road block on reattaining any kind of prominence. Mean I know.
"Shackles of Doom" anyone? I think that reducing his stats will do. Making his char completely unplayable would take some of the fun out of it. 8)
Most of you agreed with me and even suggested that Redraven have other stuff reset, which I have come to agree with since we can't be sure that of anything he didn't get by cheating.
My final verdict:
Redraven
* All characters except for Redraven (Xtrasp, Lobaroja, Qatarzak, and any others) deleted.
* All of Redraven's locker and inventory equipment cleared. All skills and spells returned to 1%. Hp/mana/move set to 1 each. Trains, pracs, pneuma, QP, and kill counters reset to 0\. Stats reduced to half of what a level 1 starts with.
* All of his characters (Redraven included) are to be removed from churches with no compensation. Control of the church will be given to the next highest-ranked person that is next up the list (has been in the church longest). If they don't want it, they pass on control to the next highest-ranked person up the list. This way everyone can get what they put in, if it's there. The last person will disband the church.
* He is to be forever banned from multiplaying at all. Even one violation of this is instant deletion of all his chars, even if he logs them on by accident.
* PK flag so that people can hunt his cheating ass. Since it costs 5000 pneuma to toggle it off… he'll have fun with it for a good long time.
Sirrus and Alya
* 1 month freeze
* Written warning that if they get caught cheating again, they will get the same punishment as Red. I am serious about this, by the way.
Zion
* 2 week freeze with a warning. He has been playing long enough to know the rules, even though I haven't seen him break them on any other character.
These edicts will be issued by Areo and Kitala at the earliest time of their convenience. A note will also be sent to Redraven describing his punishments and listing the summarized evidence against him listed here. This will prevent any "I didn't do it" bitching from him.
We will also send out a news with a overview of Red's punishment to everyone, to prevent them from breaking the rules and ending up like him. Soon I will post a couple of threads regarding an audit of the current rules to make them less ambiguous and better worded. Also either me or Areo will code in a little bit of stuff for comment files to keep track of people's criminal record better.
I am going to lock this topic, just because it's time to move on. Thank you all very much for your thoughts and intelligent discussion. I am not forbidding anyone from bringing up this topic or posting about it (or talking to me about it), but it has served the purpose I intended for it.
Also a bit miffed because my POS Dell with a recalled battery overheated as I was typing it and I had to retype the last 25%. *curses* __Nemo me impune lacessit.__
See you all soon.
8)
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Punishment carried out!
