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I would have to say that I agree with everyone's suggestions so far, and being thjat everything mentioned was along the lines of what I would have suggested, I guess I have nothing further to add other than, I strongly agree that he NEEDS a harsh punishment. So my official suggestion would be "all of the above."
-H
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And to think, I thought Redraven had quit doing that shit a little over a year ago. Oh well. Personally, this is how I think judgement for Redraven should go:
Delete all characters aside from Redraven (Xtrasp, Lobaroja, and that one funky Q named one I can't remember, and I'm sure he has others, just keep an eye on his ip).
Strip him of all gold, pneuma, diety points, and quest points. I know before he was caught by an immortal who is no longer here for using redraven to get quest items for xtrasp to turn in during a global. I almost think it was Elden.
Turn his PK flag on permanently to where he cannot remove it. Bashae, a past repeat offender, had the same punishment.
Set his hp/m/mv to 1/1/1 base, just like Armand was punished previously for one occurance of cheating (not a handful like Red).
Set all of his mastered skills/spells to 1\. If they are mastered, he probably botted them. That is the only way to see it with his recharge spell.
Strip him of all of his equipment, including quest items. He no longer deserves them.
Leave him at level 120, but remove his PK flag and give him the BOTTER flag. (If memory serves, the botter flag makes the person attackable by ANY player, but they cannot in turn attack any player).
It seems harsh, but how many years has he repeatedly broken the rules?
As for Alya and Sirrus:
Give Sirrus a two week freeze. He has other chars he can play if he choses. Also, give Alya a one week freeze. She has not broken the rules as much as Sirrus, but we cannot just slap her on the wrist. After the frozen time is over, give Alya the BOTTER flag for a month as a "probationary" time frame. Remove the PK flag from Sirrus and give him the BOTTER flag for a month as well.
Maybe I'm a hardass. But I've seen many people cheat their way through this game and not get into trouble. Now, my voice can be heard, and I hopefully won't see it happen anymore.
A note on that: The reason many were allowed to continuously cheat was because they had immortal friends (of which none are still immortals, by the way).
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About one of the auction incidents.. I was speaking w/ Sirrus today about different armor, and he mentioned the sleeves that were an example of Red's underhanded doings.. Sirrus says he gave Red his old sleeves, and kept the ones from the auction. Is it possible that that's what happened? There's not an auction begin/end time on there, so I don't know, but when we were talking about his EQ, he described the sleeves as the "ones he got off auc" when I asked where to get them.
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Yar I already told syn about that conversation in my last pm regarding this.
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~~@Aradia:~~
> About one of the auction incidents.. I was speaking w/ Sirrus today about different armor, and he mentioned the sleeves that were an example of Red's underhanded doings.. Sirrus says he gave Red his old sleeves, and kept the ones from the auction. Is it possible that that's what happened? There's not an auction begin/end time on there, so I don't know, but when we were talking about his EQ, he described the sleeves as the "ones he got off auc" when I asked where to get them.
I noticed that too. When I get home I'll look at the logs to get a clearer picture, since the log of this starts a little bit after it should.
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Comment files, the change to the multiplay rules, and the overall audit of the game rules are all great suggestions. I wonder about listing the rules in order of importance, however. Is it wise to announce to the players that some rules are less important (presumably more ignorable) than others? As for Redraven's punishment in particular, I have to defer to others who are more familiar with his history and with punishments in general since I have had very little involvement with either.
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With his history, I believe he should have no character above first class, first mort.
All gold, dp, PK stats and pneuma stripped.
All lockers and items purged.
All stats and skills dropped to 1 each (being str, dex, hp, mana, sword, chill touch, etc). House recalls removed.
All church commands disabled except for church talk.
A flag put on his characters so they cannot get transfers from churches.
Then, if he decides to cheat again, put on a botter flag on all his characters.
Offense after that, delete his characters one by one, starting with his favourite and working down.
It is a greater insult to keep the characters and have them reduced in this way than to be out right deleted.
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I feel that keeping his character at level 120 and giving him 1/1/1 stats is more of a punishment than setting him to level 1 with 1/1/1 stats. Being 120, you cannot level to gain stats, therefor you must train, and quest to get pracs. Armand had that punishment given to him and it took him many months to get his stats where he was playable again.
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If one were to give him large magnitude negative point values on all the important counters: practices, trains, quest points, deity points, pneuma…. I can see that as being a major road block on reattaining any kind of prominence. Mean I know.
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Hey everyone,
I think I've allowed enough time on here for everyone who wants to pitch in their thoughts (or noncommitment) on the matter, and I think this situation is ready to be resolved. I've established a final decree that is appropriate, and will be issued by Areo and/or Kit since they were the ones who did the most work assembling evidence of this.
First I'd like to reply to a few people. I am very sorry that I can't address everything in everyone's post, but that's really just a time issue and I've used up a lot sleuthing stuff on this, so I picked out the points which stand out most.
~~@Aradia:~~
> On one personal note, being as Sirrus and I share an IP, I really hope that it'll be his character frozen, and not the IP blocked or something like that
I generally regard IP bans as a last resort for 2 reasons (1) it's not very effective if your person can use a different IP range (mostly the people who have nothing to do but hack MUDs fall into this category) and (2) it tends to ban people who weren't meant to be punished. I can assure freezing him won't affect your char(s) in anyway.
~~@Ertai:~~
> Also, I propose rather than deleting his churches, you punish only him by banning him from those churches. This will allow someone to step up if need be. This may not be an issue based on how active these churches are, but if there are other active members, they most likely donated time and energy as well.
Very definitely true. I've come up with a reasonable solution to this below.
~~@Ertai:~~
> As for Sirrus and Alya, I suggest the same punishment for both since they are (were) both very aware of the rules.
I'm going to extend their freeze from 2 weeks to a month. I wasn't aware that they'd been caught before. Also a very harsh warning is in order, since if they are caught again they will be at a point much like red is in now.
~~@Ertai:~~
> Finally, I've heard rumors of tokens being implemented. If they are in fact ready, what are the chances that we can add a set of 5 or so tokens to each individual item (this may not be feasible with RAM and whatever else) that record IP's and character names or something similar. This could cause problems with people on the same IP that are playing fair, but maybe there are ways around that?
Not rumors, tokens are in fact implemented.
This is definitely a good idea. Tokens arent probably the best for this since all that's really required is a player name and IP, and we can make a different structure for that to save memory. We'll code it in as soon as possible.
~~@Kitty:~~
> Back to Red I also think his level should be reduced to one as well as all of his stats and gold, if cheating has helped him gain levels and advance with his items and ect then we should also take this ability away from him.
Although you seem to have a good point here, as someone else mentioned it would be HARDER to get your stats back if you were 120, since you couldn't level up to get them. I think it would be fitting to give him 1/1/1 stats and a PK flag which he can't toggle off with his 0 pneuma. 8)
~~@Aradia:~~
> About one of the auction incidents.. I was speaking w/ Sirrus today about different armor, and he mentioned the sleeves that were an example of Red's underhanded doings.. Sirrus says he gave Red his old sleeves, and kept the ones from the auction. Is it possible that that's what happened? There's not an auction begin/end time on there, so I don't know, but when we were talking about his EQ, he described the sleeves as the "ones he got off auc" when I asked where to get them.
Here is the log information you are looking for.
Sun Aug 6 14:23:35 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:38 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:41 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:42 2006 :: Log Sirrus: who
Sun Aug 6 14:23:45 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: pick north
Sun Aug 6 14:23:48 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: get sleeve use
Sun Aug 6 14:23:48 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: auction sleeve
Sun Aug 6 14:23:52 2006 :: Log Sirrus: auc info
Sun Aug 6 14:23:56 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: l
Sun Aug 6 14:23:58 2006 :: Log Sirrus: eq
Sun Aug 6 14:24:02 2006 :: Log Xtrasp: mount roch
Sun Aug 6 14:24:02 2006 :: Log Sirrus: sta
Sun Aug 6 14:24:04 2006 :: Log Sirrus: c id arm
Sun Aug 6 14:24:11 2006 :: Log Sirrus: auc bid 100
Sun Aug 6 14:24:16 2006 :: Log Sirrus: rest couch
Sun Aug 6 14:24:18 2006 :: Log Sirrus: rest couch
Sun Aug 6 14:24:20 2006 :: Log Sirrus: rest tub
Sun Aug 6 14:24:33 2006 :: Log Redraven: remove wings
Sun Aug 6 14:24:34 2006 :: Log Redraven: c id wings
Sun Aug 6 14:24:39 2006 :: Log Sirrus: get slee silk
Sun Aug 6 14:24:40 2006 :: Log Sirrus: sta
Sun Aug 6 14:24:41 2006 :: Log Redraven: give wings sirr
Sun Aug 6 14:24:41 2006 :: Log Sirrus: c id slee
Sun Aug 6 14:24:55 2006 :: Log Redraven: auction info
Sun Aug 6 14:24:57 2006 :: Log Sirrus: put slee silk
Sun Aug 6 14:24:58 2006 :: Log Sirrus: auc info
Sun Aug 6 14:25:02 2006 :: Log Sirrus: c id rav
Sun Aug 6 14:25:05 2006 :: Log Sirrus: give rav red
Sun Aug 6 14:25:11 2006 :: Log Redraven: drop wings
Sun Aug 6 14:25:14 2006 :: Log Redraven: get wing
Sun Aug 6 14:25:17 2006 :: Log Redraven: look wing
While it may very well be true that he gave Red his old sleeves, it doesn't really make a difference in my opinion. The point is he helped two characters played by the same person to do an equipment transfer, which is illegal despite the fact that it's indirect.
~~@Pollution:~~
> I wonder about listing the rules in order of importance, however. Is it wise to announce to the players that some rules are less important (presumably more ignorable) than others?
I definitely agree with you here; thinking this over it would be a better idea to scramble them up fairly randomly instead.
~~@Qalinosk:~~
> It is a greater insult to keep the characters and have them reduced in this way than to be out right deleted.
Deleting characters is just too much fun. Leaving him a disabled lv120 I think is insulting enough 8).
~~@Kraphin:~~
> I feel that keeping his character at level 120 and giving him 1/1/1 stats is more of a punishment than setting him to level 1 with 1/1/1 stats. Being 120, you cannot level to gain stats, therefor you must train, and quest to get pracs. Armand had that punishment given to him and it took him many months to get his stats where he was playable again.
I am in agreement here. In addition to not being able to get stats back as fast, I don't want to give him a chance to change any of his classes or replay his character in a better way. If he wants to start afresh and not have a reputation of a cheater, it'll have to be a new char, and new name.
~~@Nibelung:~~
> If one were to give him large magnitude negative point values on all the important counters: practices, trains, quest points, deity points, pneuma…. I can see that as being a major road block on reattaining any kind of prominence. Mean I know.
"Shackles of Doom" anyone? I think that reducing his stats will do. Making his char completely unplayable would take some of the fun out of it. 8)
Most of you agreed with me and even suggested that Redraven have other stuff reset, which I have come to agree with since we can't be sure that of anything he didn't get by cheating.
My final verdict:
Redraven
* All characters except for Redraven (Xtrasp, Lobaroja, Qatarzak, and any others) deleted.
* All of Redraven's locker and inventory equipment cleared. All skills and spells returned to 1%. Hp/mana/move set to 1 each. Trains, pracs, pneuma, QP, and kill counters reset to 0\. Stats reduced to half of what a level 1 starts with.
* All of his characters (Redraven included) are to be removed from churches with no compensation. Control of the church will be given to the next highest-ranked person that is next up the list (has been in the church longest). If they don't want it, they pass on control to the next highest-ranked person up the list. This way everyone can get what they put in, if it's there. The last person will disband the church.
* He is to be forever banned from multiplaying at all. Even one violation of this is instant deletion of all his chars, even if he logs them on by accident.
* PK flag so that people can hunt his cheating ass. Since it costs 5000 pneuma to toggle it off… he'll have fun with it for a good long time.
Sirrus and Alya
* 1 month freeze
* Written warning that if they get caught cheating again, they will get the same punishment as Red. I am serious about this, by the way.
Zion
* 2 week freeze with a warning. He has been playing long enough to know the rules, even though I haven't seen him break them on any other character.
These edicts will be issued by Areo and Kitala at the earliest time of their convenience. A note will also be sent to Redraven describing his punishments and listing the summarized evidence against him listed here. This will prevent any "I didn't do it" bitching from him.
We will also send out a news with a overview of Red's punishment to everyone, to prevent them from breaking the rules and ending up like him. Soon I will post a couple of threads regarding an audit of the current rules to make them less ambiguous and better worded. Also either me or Areo will code in a little bit of stuff for comment files to keep track of people's criminal record better.
I am going to lock this topic, just because it's time to move on. Thank you all very much for your thoughts and intelligent discussion. I am not forbidding anyone from bringing up this topic or posting about it (or talking to me about it), but it has served the purpose I intended for it.
Also a bit miffed because my POS Dell with a recalled battery overheated as I was typing it and I had to retype the last 25%. *curses* __Nemo me impune lacessit.__
See you all soon.
8)
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Punishment carried out!
