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Of course if silence becomes room affecting, and affecting music, then not only does the opponentn not cast spells, noone cast spells that have a verbal component.. Hence why, a "verbalize" skill should be available (not sure what class), or some minor healing spell available that does not require sound.
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A few things on bards.
Bard song Curse of the abyss
Song costs 100 mana.
Casts fire ball, demon fire, energy drain.
Would like to see it cast Web, Demon Fire(or just curse) and weaken or plague.
The other ones aren't too bad. I don't mind any of them. They aren't all that powerful as most can tell. They are rarely used, other than the healing song, and faerie fire. The other ones are used, just not a whole lot.
And bards not being able to play without and instrument.
Well bards are entertainers, if I am correct. And they are also able to sing, and do tricks etc. Well, it seems like a bard would be able to sing a song if not using an instrument. Well, if silenced, they shouldn't be able to sing. Thus not be able to sing songs. Well, the instrument being in inventory and playing music.. well, when actually playing a song, it is just like a spell. You lose your turn if you time it wrong. So either way, I can see how that would work. And some people want to make it so that bards have to wear an instroment. Well it is easy to make an alias like say:
ALIAS NAME Play Rem shield;wear tuba;play
SECOND ALIAS pp 'pretty in pink'
THIRD ALIAS 00 Remove tuba; wear shield
SECONDARY WEAPON Kite shield
PLay pp soldier
remove shield;wear tuba; 'play pretty in pink' soldier
00
remove shield;wear shield.
Now that command takes about 3 seconds, easy to get through a round of battle for a quick spell. So unless blinded, making the player wear a instrument is pointless when they can do that. And it makes spells faster all the time any way because of the instrument bonus. But in a nut shell, the curse song could use some changing… sorry about the long reading.
Emtae
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To take a page from Emtae:
….trying to argue with someone who's **bard** is pointless. They don't want to lose it because it is their only real way of winning. I know they are simple to beat. Granted they are tougher than some **classes**, but still aren't that difficult to take on if fighting them correctly. And the same goes for people that are 120's and getting owned because one successful **song** wins the battle. So I thought of an idea about **bard music**….
Let's make them even more powerful while at the same time nerfing an entire race.
All joking aside, I think if you want to play music with your voice, that you are highly susceptible to silence, and take much longer to do since it's not done by instruments endowed with magic. Hell, let's add an even bigger requirement to bards. You have to play a magical instrument to get any spell affects from songs. Using your voice should require you to be blessed and/or have 2-3x the mana needed to do the song.
As far as not having to hold an instrument? Coming from a titan is comical. What? You want to be able to use two-handers, another weapon or a shield, a light AND have the manual dexterity and ABILITY to play an instrument? You've got to be joking. It's absurd enough that you've got three hands (or two if the light really floats) and want another one. Personally, and this could go into a new topic, you should only be able to hold/wield/use two items .... if you only have TWO hands. That includes any combination of a light, one or two weapons, a shield AND an instrument.
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I Disagree on silence becoming a room affecting spell. Perhaps making another spell that affects the room working like silence making a room nomagic/nomusic for perhaps the same amount of time an inferno or wither would take. Wands, staves and potions however still being affective. Silence as it is should stay the same.
Also, emtae the reason i want it only worn or only sung is because if you can do both and your singing at first and i silence you, you can do your little alias to wear your instrument thus making my moonstone completely useless.
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You know, I think the confusion is where do bards GET their magic from? The songs? No. Their voice? No. Their instruments? Not quite. Otherwise anyone could do it. No, it's their skill in using magical instruments. Sure anybody could sing a song, but nothing could happen from it. Bards may be entertainers, but that doesn't mean every damn thing they do to entertain people with should spawn off spells. No, just as ordinary speech shouldn't cause a mage to cast spells, they have to use something to do that. If a bard could just invoke magical effects with their voice, that would make them like mages… yet another pious class that can do magic via spell casting. But no, they are BARDS, musicians... not mages nor singers. Musicians play instruments.
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Bards, as per how they are set up right now, are based on Celtic lore. They are the lowest of the Druid sect. Their job, was to learn and ORALLY recite all knowledge and history. They were advisors, historians. The power that they conveyed as primarily through the voice. Musical instruments were learned to enhance such a skill. They entertained and enthralled people with their voice, sometimes using instruments. If anything, using an instrument should increase the use of songs played now, not be a requirement.
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speaking of instruments..instead of whining about us (ok not ME us but one of me us) having to hold them to use music..how about we discuss the fact we haaaave no pretty sparkley powerful ones…talk amongst yourself *dimples in grin*
ps NO an old school Tuba is NOT cool...i mean..common.......its a Tuba!
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Well, I would like to go to the part where Bards lose there ability to attack while playing/singing a song. If any one hasn't noticed, we lose it. So, what could someone do in that time?! How about, stop using the weapon, then they hold the instrument. and then they play it? And then that would make sense when wearing one, you get a 1/3 playing time, you wouldn't have to take the time to wear the weapon that way. So, there's my thought.
Secondly, going a class and making it required to wear an item is lame. No other class requires you to use an item for the class to be successful. Bards are a very tough class I agree, but making them lose shield block, and dual wield, completely takes away their power. The silence or blind requirements make much more sense, instead of having one idea that completely takes most of the success of a bard.
Also, spell deflection is the only useful skill of an illusionist. Take the ability to use bard songs with it, and it becomes utterly useless. Why would someone even want to cast it on themselves, if they can’t quaff a potion, they can’t brandish through it, they can’t, cast through it, can’t recite though it, and can’t play songs thought it. It has a 1/4th chance getting passed by spell affects. And when dispel magic makes it past, spell deflection usually stays on, and if sanctuary is removed, you are screwed, because removing all, and wearing all, also is deflected for those who don’t realize this. So this would also make illusionist a worthless skill. So my point of all this is to instead of being biased, why not try other successful means of toning down bards.
Emtae
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My thought on this whole matter.,,,, Spell Deflection should only work on magics that come from outside the aura.. ie other peoples (including music) and scrolls. Spells cast by the one affected are from within the aura and if any thing should have a better chance of affecting as the aura holds it in. Or potions as the magic is coming from within the one who quaffs it.
If not all spells cast by the one affected things like dispel, or cancellation cast by him should definately work as these are throwing off of things that are "inside" the aura. (seeing as how they must have been cast first).
As it is, casting spell deflection is just to powerfull as an offensive spell. So if the above adjustments are not made just make it so it is only castable on yourself, then bards would be able to use it for defense, etc.
And i will give prior props for good class selection but atm, probably the most overpowered (ie good without need for good player skills) would be:
A titan, bard, wizard, illusionists, sage –--- spell deflection (music to heal self thru it), Deception to prevent circle, bs, bj, and dirt kick, and if dirt kick does get thru, or a flamine weapon manages to blind,,,,,,,, healing hands to cure it.
Just MY IMHO..
Anyways,,,,,,
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I think Ithilidin put it pretty well in saying that insturments should be used to enhance bard song, as an acompanyment to the bard's voice. It would be pretty cool if a bard's race would set up their vocal qualities, and change how effective some songs were. Also, the way silence works now, using an insturment would allow a bard who has lost her voice through silence to still use bardly magic with an insturment. An insturment wear spot could be added, but while actually using the insturment to cast spells, it seems to me that attacking with weapons would be much more difficult.
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Well, adding an instrument slot for a bard would just make them even more powerful. That's just giving any person with an os tuba extra stats, and some instruments other than tubas have stats too. Though, if you want to do that, go right ahead. I think if a bard is silenced, they should lose their ability to use songs, unless holding an instrument. If a bard is blinded, the have to use their voice. If a bard is holding an instrument, an isn't silenced, music will cast 1/3 the time. Maybe if sage, being blinded will have no affect if blinded.
Emtae
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I think that being able to target a bard's weapon with spells(silence, fireball) or weapons would be a nice way to counter the bard's magical songs, and if a specific insturment either allowed new songs to be used, or a specific insturment would be required for certain songs(ie. a demonic fiddle for curse of the abyss). Maybe even balance it by having some insturments be great for offensive songs(such as my demonic fiddle example) but totally nerf[increased chance of failure or slower casting time or reduced effectiveness] healing/buffing songs since it __is__ made from negative energy filled demonflesh.
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Well, the whole point of going bard is for its powers to attack with songs. They lose out on a lot of defence and offence from going bard. Rouges, and assassins gain a lot of stuff when going Ninja, so just limiting a Bard to one song per instrument seems too harsh. Some of the bard songs are being toned down, mainly Curse of the abyss. The lose of Energy drains over power will weaken bards cheapness a lot.
I didn make a comment of Bards wearing instruments. I actually think it would be a semi-good idea. Just remove quivers and Bows/cross bows, and put the instrument in that slot. Seeing as some people use arrows etc, and people who can't even use a bow, or a cross bow are using the slots, which is kinda of bs but any way. At least if you are going to let bards wear the instruments, take away the arrows so they just aren't gaining more and more slots. However, I don't think it is a bad Idea to let a bard wear it in the weapons slots either, I just think it is a bad Idea to limit the bards music to only play music when wearing it in a weapons slot.
Emtae
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I'm goig to speak my peace on bards and that's gonna be all that is heard from me. I know bards are a very touchy subject in the game. personaly, i think that bards should be subject to every defence that all mages are subject to. silence, spell shield, blind (i'm pretty sure bards are at the minute), counterspell, and anyothers i'm forgettting or plain just don't know. I really have no problem with bards being able to cast 1 to 3 spells with one song. But, I can't defend against it, unless i blind the bard. Not to mention, that druids had the ablity to scribe and brew multible spells at once taken away, but bards can cast three spells at once. All i'm asking for is a defence that works on bards that's just as common as all of the others.
There, i said my peace…I'm done
Crawley
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Okay, I'm not giving any real input, because I don't play a bard, and everything I have to say has basically been said before.
However, there is one thing I would like to address regarding previous posts.
When you're talking about the balance between subclasses, Remort subclasses should have absolutely nothing to do with it. That is a matter of balance between remort subclasses, and a completely different issue. Please, do not use remort subclass options as a method of balancing mortal subclasses. If you wish to discuss the balance between remort subclasses, that is, of course, a valid issue, but it should not be directly related to your mortal subclass comparisons. Mortal subclasses should be balanced on their own, and remort subclasses, likewise.
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Thanks Riane, thats a great point. :) Also, nowhere in my post did I say each insturment would be limited to evoking 1 bard song/spell. Also, its hardly a problem to swap insturments so you could benefit from the healing magic of say… a celestial banjo, or whatever. That way people won't always be wearing a silly os tuba, because tubas aren't good for all types of music/songs, and that would separate the bards from the good bards who win at pk.
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Ok ok ok :D I saw this and had to respond….
~~@Emtae:~~
> Secondly, going a class and making it required to wear an item is lame. No other class requires you to use an item for the class to be successful. Bards are a very tough class I agree, but making them lose shield block, and dual wield, completely takes away their power. The silence or blind requirements make much more sense, instead of having one idea that completely takes most of the success of a bard.
No other class requires you to USE an item to get benefit outta something? Ok, explain how wilderness spear style will work without wielding a spear. Or how can a warrior be successful without using a weapon! (Hand to hand aside, it sucks atm, but that's another issue). What about parry? You need to use a weapon to use that skill. Or shield block? Last I checked, that required a shield. So, the fact that a bard would have to hold an instrument to play music on it shouldn't come as a big surprise. Name one feasible *instrument*, existing or otherwise, a bard can play that doesn't require some holding (aside from a piano, harp and the big procussion instruments.. those are big instruments and can't be held!). After that, count how many instruments you have to hold to play.
And since when would a bard lose dual wield or shield block? Those are warrior skills, bards never had it. And a bard doesn't have to be holding an instrument all the time, just when they wanted to play music that requires an instrument (ok, atm, that's all music).
A tough class? I remember when Bards were *LAUGHED* at cause they sucked. It wasn't until a few punks went bard and started abusing the flaws of their principle skill, that people started bitching loudly.
And on the subject of taking away the success of the bard with one idea? What about silence on mages! I mean, crap, a silenced mage can't cast spells! OMG! THEY CAN'T CAST SPELLS! HOW WILL THEY SURVIVE?! Simple, they deal with it. Silencing a mage typically cripples them, that's why it's there and requires a reagent/catalyst.
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OK, my point was, that in order to use the whole point of a bard, you HAVE to use an instrument. Well, if making a bard hold an instrument does get used. The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield. I am just trying to make a point, that I doubt people will like bard any more if that happens. Which is why I suggested the blind/ silence options. To try them out at least.
Emtae
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~~@Emtae:~~
> The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield.
I just want you to know how illogical that statement sounds. If a lich holds an instrument and a shield, what are they going to be able to hit with? NOTHING! Both of their hands will be full. It will amount to the same thing every other race will have if they have to hold something and a shield.
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~~@Xevira:~~
> ~~@Emtae:~~
>
> > The one class that will not really be affected will be Liches because they will just hold an instrument, and a shield.
>
> I just want you to know how illogical that statement sounds. If a lich holds an instrument and a shield, what are they going to be able to hit with? NOTHING! Both of their hands will be full. It will amount to the same thing every other race will have if they have to hold something and a shield.
You could smack the shit out of someone with a shield, if you really wanted to 8)
I added the ability to play withou holding an instrument basically, because a lot of people complained that bards were a bit weak… if you play during combat, its kind of assumed that you sheath your sword or what have you while playing, thus the loss of attacks.
I'm not sure if bards are a bad class anymore. Sorry I havent read through this entire post, but I wanted to get that out so people know why it was originally done... shit, I hope I haven't gone completely off topic. Sorry if i have.
I htink maybe, we should go a different direction with them than juts h aving the pre-set songs? I think having a few songs of lore, and stuff, is great but maybe you shuld be able to make/play your own songs with different affects. Basically expanding the bard's musical capabilities, maybe let them sing or something of the sort. can anyone suggest a reason/way to or not to do this?
Perhaps we could give them a somewhat limited sort of lore-master ability (like Karnak. ) limited meaning, that if a bard has been somewheer before, they can track certain items somehow. Could we substitute this for having to hold the instrument you play?
