-
Well, here is my 2 cents…
Personally i think that Myth has a point but it only goes so far. Most of the good races (staticaly) are stronger and meaner than the evil races. But I see balance in this, because the evil classes (2 of them) get an insta kill. Granted assassin slit throat is kinda crap (yes a sith just said this) and the kill spell is quite useful and chesse in pk (dispel magic, kill, woo hoo i win).
I think the titans are over powered but not because of the two handed weapon in one hand thing (personaly i think they should get that like the dracons do, as in REMORT ONLY) but because of the extra attack in a round. True, elves get an extra attack because they have racial haste, which doesn't give them the +4 to dex. The main differance is that titans can still be hasted, so if done right a level 40 mort titan can have 6 attacks a round. I can only have 6 attacks after i remort.
The sith...Take out the sleep toxin. done. (yes a sith said this) I think it makes pk cheap and pointless. I bite you, you fall asleep, i kill you and eat your brains....ummmm....brains. I'd say just remove it from the game. But i would like for the sith neurotoxin to do something (i've heard it will in an upcoming update). Also, why do the Sith have the hiest move in the game? None of our special ablities use move. lower our move or make our ablities use move, at least that way the highest move in the game might be justified.
The Vamp needs to have it's stats (as in hp/ma/mv) lowered. Not drastically, but lowered like maybe 300 points across the board ( 100 from each stat). Not to mention needing a quest item to see through the shape ablity, is sick. I mean at least a spell, or a remort only spell. I think that's fair.
The dracons and minotars need more move. the only reason to play one is because to the niffty little attack that they get (breath and charge respectaly). Both of these attack forms take a stupid amount of move (minotars get screwed on this one) and don't do enough damage (dragons are a different story, after all they are remorts and should be more powerful). Now granted, i have never played a minotar in this game but i have heard that if one uses charge then it takes like 40 move per creature in the room (i'm counting if a player is in the room as well, thats why i didn't say mob). I don't know how true this is...but if it is...
Personaly i would honestly like to see insta kills removed from the game (slit, kill, behead, smite, Sith sleep [not an insta kill, but pisses off a lot of people]).
I've said this before. I would like to see all the races have 9000 (or another number, whatever) points distrbuted across hp/ma/mv. I would also like to see 90 (or whatever number) points distrbuted across the 5 stats (str, int, wis, dex, con) this would give the human 18 across the board. After all if human is suposed to be the base race (i'm guessing that it is), then why do they get shafted so bad. I don't care what people say about them being balanced (cause they don't get anything for or against them, so…it's balanced). If they were balanced against the other races then more people would play a human. Right now, i can't think of a single human (although i know someone will correct me on this) in the game that is or was worth a damn.
If everyone, and i mean everyone, wants "game balance" then we should all get screwed in one way or another. We all lose something, we can keep what makes the different races unique, but we need (so many of us say "need" like it's going out of style on these forums) is to be powered down...unless you are a human.
-
oh yeah i forgot about stake as an insta kill. (although it is kinda useless anyway) it sould go too. (I know i'm forgetting at least one more, maybe not)
The only reason i'm saying any of this is to try and make pk more fun (and a challange) for everyone. Besides everyone would cherish their pk stats so much more if they really had to work for it.
My third cent
Crawley
-
All comparisons are made to human. No class selection of said races is pertinent to this as class balancing is an entirely different subject. Nor are remort races being discussed, as they are technically a seperate race in and of themselves so have different balancing issues.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Slayer 20 20 20 20 20 3250 2750 2750
````
Affects: detect evil
Skills: holy wrath, shift, stake
Immune: None
Resistant: None
Vulnerable: negative
Overall: I would say that slayers are fine as they are. The only thing that I could say that would should be changed is moves, which I could see going up to 3000\. They are hunters, by nature, which means that their ability to move around should be greater than their spellcasting abilities.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Elf 20 22 20 21 20 2500 3750 2800
````
Affects: haste
Skills: archery, bow, hide, sneak
Special abilities: +5% accuracy when shooting ranged weapons
Immune: None
Resistant: magic
Vulnerable: iron
Overall: Skills are easily gained through other classes, the affect is easy to obtain within the game and since the resistance hasn't truely been tested until the update is made, I would say that this race is rather balanced. I am not really sure about the vulnerability, but for the time being, it is best just to leave it alone.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Dracon 21 18 18 18 21 3150 2750 3000
````
Affects: flying, infrared
Skills: breathe, fast healing
Immune: None
Resistant: fire, bash, charm
Vulnerable: cold
Overall: I think that charm is probably one of the worst sort of resistances to have in the game. Remove it from all races to start. I would also say to remove fire as a resistant, but keep bash as the scales tend to absorb damage, and it encompasses blunt damage. I am not sure if the vulnerable fits, but I would say that due to the metallic nature of the scales of dracons/dragons, they should have lightning.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Titan 23 18 18 17 23 3750 2450 2700
````
Skills: bash, fast healing, titanic attack
Immune: None
Resistant: cold, fire
Vulnerable: lightning
Overall: Stats are a bit higher than Humans, with extra hit points. Most of the skills are easily obtained. Titanic attack should be changed from an extra attack, to extra damage. Perhaps +1 damage roll per ten levels or something close to that. Their resistances, to me, do not make sense. For me, I see them as huge humans, so remove the resistances and vulnerability and I think that this race would be closer to being balanced. Perhaps with time, if it is needed, a boost to mana, but shouldn't be added yet.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Dwarf 21 18 18 18 21 3350 2750 3500
````
Affects: infrared, regeneration
Skills: berserk, repair
Immune: None
Resistant: acid, cold, fire, lightning
Vulnerable: drowning
Overall: I could see a +1 to str and con being added, drop all the resistances, add in resistance to earth, and no idea what this would encompass. Regeneration and repair make up for any lack that there might be otherwise.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Lich 18 23 24 16 23 2350 3850 2500
````
Affects: pass door
Skills: crippling touch, rending, scry, spirit rack
Special abilities: mana regeneration is 2.5x normal
Immune to: charm, cold, lightning, kill
Resistant to: poison, pierce, slash
Vulnerable to: bash, fire
Overall: Highest overall stats, lowest hit points, highest mana. Again, remove the immunity to charm here. Actually, remove all the immunities except kill. Change them to resistances. Drop resistance to pierce and slash. Remove the vunerablity to bash. Perhaps increase hp up to Elf maximum. As is, everything else seems to be fine according to stats.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Sith 18 19 19 22 18 3100 3000 3750
````
Skills: bite, hunt, sense danger, tail kick, toxins
Special abilities: None
Immune to: poison
Resistant to: None
Vulnerable to: fire, pierce
Overall: Slightly higher stats, couple of unique skills, couple that can be obtained through classes. I would change the vulnerable to fire to cold. There is entirely too much vulnerable to fire on the evil side of races. Otherwise, I would say this race is fine.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Minotaur 23 18 18 19 22 3500 2350 2500
````
Affects: regeneration
Skills: bash, charge
Immune: None
Resistant: cold
Vulnerable: fire
Overall: Not a bad race, but lacking overall. I would say that if the vulnerability were to be dropped, then this race woulc be better suited to being balanced.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Vampire 22 18 20 19 18 3350 3250 3250
````
Affects: detect invisibility, detect hidden
Skills: bite, consume, fast healing, shape, shift, temperance
Special abilities: None
Immune to: poison
Resistant to: disease
Vulnerable to: fire, holy, light
Overall: Good stats, good skills and affects. I think that the vulnerability to light should be dropped and leave it as sunlight being the true damaging factor. Shift should be made so that you can still where the person, shape should be limited to dark hours and still unable to where.
````
Race Str Int Wis Dex Con HP Mana Move
Drow 18 22 20 20 18 2750 3500 2600
````
Affects: infrared
Skills: crossbow, hide, sneak, swerve
Immune: None
Resistant: charm
Vulnerable: light, silver
Overall: Add one more to dexterity. Remove the resistance to charm and replace it with magic. I do not see why there should be so much removal from Elves. I think that they should share this resistance. Haste was replaced with a defense. Give them 5% accuracy to crossbows. Everything else, though, I think that this would make the race more balanced.
-
Giving Titans added mana, removing their vulns, increasing their DR, and leaving their 2h weapon in 1h ability seems a little obscene.
While Titans may be viewed by you as a very large humans, Titans in the game are meant to resemble the Titans of Greek lore. That's why their gigantic size. Being compared to humans in this manner is quite lacking.
The overall end result in any of this in any case is that the races are still unbalanced.
Dracons get breathes, Sith get toxins.
Elves and Drow get greater ability in using ranged weapons.
Slayers and Vampires get the ability to shapeshift.
Titans and Minotaurs get increased regeneration capabilities.
All of this is nice, and very benificial for each of the race in showing their individuality in play, whether it be player vs mob or player vs player.
The problem lies in their inability to balance out. You put a Sith up against a Dracon of equal stature, the Sith is going to win 75% of the time.
An Elf and Drow are about 50/50, and are quite balanced with eachother (although I still feel that a first class elf should get a +1 dex bonus from racial haste, and a 4th class get +4.)
A Vampire and a Slayer in a fight, more often than not the Slayer is going to win. Their increased damage to evil gives them a superior advantage, and I would say Slayers would win 75% of the time.
With using 2h weapon in 1h and titanic attack, Titans are going to defeat Minotaurs at least 75% of the time.
For PK, this is how I feel the races stand in a PK fight:
1\. Titan
2\. Drow
3\. Elf
4\. Sith
5\. Dwarf
6\. Slayer
7\. Vampire
8\. Human
9\. Draconian
10\. Minotaur
11\. Lich
Liches get the shaft in PK ability. Minotaurs, while having high hp, and hp regeneration every round of combat, lose out due to their vuln to fireball/inferno/flaming on weapons, and flaming bite weapons (there are quite a few of these, and i'm not just talking about a 120 remort standpoint either. Pyrohydra's will rip apart a 3rd class minotaur when being used by a 3rd classer).
Minotaur's high HP and natural HP regeneration makes them last quite a long time in a fight. However, their vuln to fire damage greatly weakens them. Their mana is low, but usually die long before they are able to use it up. Charge is not a bonus in PK, since the skill is nearly worthless with it's high movement loss.
Draconians are also lacking in PK ability. Their breaths aren't very effective in PK combat, but they luck out with their resistance to fire and vuln to cold (which is very uncommon).
Humans are near the bottom of the list because the other races bonuses make them better pker's than a race that has nothing.
Vampire's ability to shape in and out of werewolf form, dispelling web, silence, and the like, is very beneficial in cpk situations, but in PK is near worthless. Their high stats is their only true saving grace.
Slayers are very well rounded PKers, and have the same benefit in cpk situations as vampires, but their 25% damage increase against evil aligned races make them a tougher foe than vampires.
Dwarves are resistant to all of the elements, and high decent enough stats to allow them to get by quite well. Belexus is a prime example of this. Their berserk gives them a massive hp bonus when at 120 remort, allowing them to reach over 5k hp.
Sith's sleep toxin makes them an odd variable in PK and CPK situations. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Their higher stats are a good bonus for them in helping them in these pk situations. And while many believe Sith to be lacking in PK, I've fought enough in my time on this game to know that they pack a more powerful punch than they are alloted.
Elves' natural resistance to magic makes them a very difficult foe. Dispelling them sometimes seems impossible. Match this with their ranged weapon bonus in using bows to shoot you inbetween rounds, as well as the inability to dispel their haste, they are a very formidable challenge.
Drow's added defence in speed swerve makes them a hard target to hit. With a good class path, Drow's can be some of the toughest fighters in the game. Spunky showed this well.
Titan's titanic attack and ability to use a 2h weapon in 1h makes them the largest powerhouse of all. Since PK is based on doing the most damage the fastest and little skill and tactic is involved, being able to use the highest damaging weapon in the game (staugaard) teamed up with an ataraxia, they can deal more damage in a round than many can heal. Add in titanic attack, and you're toast. Your best bet is to either dispel them, keep them blind, and hope for the best, or run to save your life.
-
For the two handed weapon held in one hand, I still say that a second weapon shouldn't be able to be used, but a shield could be, or one attack be removed due to the slow attack speed and recovery, no matter what ones strength is.
And titans, norse or greek, I see as oversized humans. I always have and always will. :P
Also, I think that pitting drow vs elf, sith vs dracon, etc, just makes it all the more difficult to balance and should ultimately be taken out. There should not have to be a counterbalance of race vs race, but reviewed as balanced against the only neutral race, human.
-
every race has an advantage and disadvantage towards humans. the slayer vs vamp, etc, thing was a way to balance feuding races. this was also not supposed to overpower say, elf over sith. it was a building block to work from.
-
Yeah, being a lich, I am getting owned by anyone with a fireball, flamestrike, demonfire, pyroblade, the list goes on (fire is the most common weapon as well as the most common vuln, at least in the evil/neutral area) and spirit rack is severly weak, so I might as well use circle in a fight against a dracon. Lichs are supposed to be super magic creatures, but I hardly even use magic, its too slow, takes a lot of mana, and I'm better off with my swords. Not to mention the ownage I take to magic effects, the Bag Man of olaria was beating the crap outta me, and he has magic, so I mean, whats up with that? The two vulns on lich seem quite overpowered since bludgeon (i.e. fists, clubs, maces)is quite common primarily fist and kick, and fire everything is fire anymore, especially 3rd class and up.
-Baelwolf
-
Umm Spirit Rack is weak? It requires no movement, it does cold damage, I don't think it is blockable in any way, and it is actually faster than circle. I have a lich, I know it is very affective. If you aren't using it correctly then its your own fault. Liches have shit for life, but the most mana in the game. No one said it would be easy to be a lich. So learn to not ever get hit. Liches will also have to aquire every hp armor/weapon/light in the game because eventually, they are going to get hit. Liches are very good and have vulns just like every one else.
As far as vulns, other than humans, every race in the game has one. So you are just going to have to just be careful, and use the classes best fit for a lich. So being mounted I think may be the worst idea ever for a lich.
Emtae
-
I still say that Fire isnt the way to go, it's incredibly easy to get hit by fire, and everyone has it, and does a crapload of damage. What I don't understand though is, why are lichs immune to charm? I havent ever seen charm used on a character, let alone many mobs. Maybe it could be swapped out for a different one?
Also, a side note, does anyone else think that poison needs to be revamped a bit? I've not seen it too effective in combat or after even, it doesnt really do much, perhaps if it were to take on the property of toxins? Something along those lines–-
-
Well on Iths idea. I do like the idea of holding a shield and a 2 handed weapon. For me it doesn't matter, when the game updates, I won't be using dual wield any way. Seeing as a I am a bard, I am going to lose dual wielding it seems.
But losing Titanic attack. Well, I did think of a few ideas, that I would like people to comment on all the ideas with some thought and just not saying no.
Size damage
%damage on size of enemy. When game updates, I was hoping for an idea of true size for all races. Titans being the biggest, Elves actually being the smallest. Not because they are short, but because dwarfs are thicker, and more brawd. So it could be like a 50% extra % damage kicking in. Nothing insane, like 1-15% random. But more painful for smaller and skinnier enemies.
Defence Break
Parry/shield block/wilderness spear/catch break. Another skill, rated on weight of item and titanic attack skill. Catch would be strength, bonus of giant strength, and race size. This would allow a titan to do like 25% damage every so often a parry. Or have it more rare, but completely break the defence and do normal damage. It could be something based on defence to, like a shield block would just knock the enemy over, do a slight amount of damage, as wear catch did a whole lot more.
Ithilidans idea on the Dr per level. But, it would only add up to 12dr… not liking that.
Not liking this idea. But having titanic attack being a seperate attack you can do like bash what ever, but do 1.5 damage or so. Or even double.
combat starter
Well, not my favorite, but when an apponent is at 75+ hp a titan can start combat with a very lethal attack. Doing a large amount of damage. It should be slow, but if hit, an actual great amount of damage. Pretty much would look like this.
Emtae Lifts his Stuagaard high into the air. 1 second delay, 1.5.
Emtae crushes you with a mighty blow, knocking you off your feet.
THAT REALLY DID HURT!!!
So it would be a combat starter or, it could also be a skill to use in battle, and it has some good lag to it. As a 1 second delay or so, it will be hard to actually start combat, but, it would be a Titan Attack.
Those are the main ideas I had on titans. But I would like to hear some good comments on it. Every race other than humans (i thinks being changed) has a skill or 2 or some other benefit. Titanic attack is something that people want to take away all together, but take it away, they titans are just large humans with a weakness and more hp.
To make balance, I was thinking about having true vulnerables. As in, instead of 25% it would be like 10% or 50% what ever. This could make some classes more justified. Like a Sith, I thinks siths would be weak against cold. Snake, cold etc. And a slight weakness to fire, seeing as snakes do try to use warmth.
Vampires, fire should fry the shit out of them.
Slayers, 15% to negative, strong against fire. I would immagine they wield it commonly. Slayer form could change things up. They could use some other weakness though, or else they would be unbalanced with that change.
Titans, 10% 10% on fire ice, Lighting 15% but 10% on negative too.
Dragons should be able to chose what they are strong and weak against. They should be strong against one form, and weak to another in thier opinion from start of the game. Seeing as they can breath elements too, it would affects the power of their breaths.
Minos should be strong against ice because of fur, a little weaker against fire like normal, and normal with Lightning.
The other Classes, are a toss up. This would balance the pking a bit though. May even make people rethink weapons and armors. And slow down how fast battles can go.
There are other things, but I will talk about them later. I do want people ideas on Titanic attack. In the end, syn will decide, but would help to actually have some positive and useful feedback.
Emtae
-
~~@Mythology:~~
> every race has an advantage and disadvantage towards humans. the slayer vs vamp, etc, thing was a way to balance feuding races. this was also not supposed to overpower say, elf over sith. it was a building block to work from.
I can see the point, but then people will want x race balanced perfectly with y race, while still remaining balanced with humans. The problem that I see with this is that the only way to do that is to make each race identical to the other then balance it out to humans, and then, what really is the point?
I hold that if we just work out balancing in relation to humans, then just use a storyline to pit races against each other, it would be better.
-
Well, some change in balance I think is a good idea. Have one race strong to one, but weak to another. Like I said, if every one is 50 50, then it kinda takes the danger of say, a slayer vs evil. A slayer is supposed to own evil, but why not have a problem with good spanking a slayer around then. I think unbalance in some areas is a good idea.
Emtae
-
Obviously your not comprehending my point Emtae. The point was that if your 2 in 1 handing it does consistently more damage than the random holy wrath damage bonus.
-
OK, missbalance. In a battle, someone just did 3500 damage to me in one turn, and it could have been more, I just died when I lost all my health in less that one round. All it took, a dispel and quaffing a chain lighting potion. Instant Kill. If someone can do that, Titans are in no way Broken. And I know people want to use the exploting vuln. WTF. 3500 damage in 3 seconds. My suggestion. Just make brewing chain lighting impossible. It takes no lag, and it can kill a titan in about 3 seconds. Yeah, that is fair.
Emtae
-
~~@Emtae:~~
> OK, missbalance. In a battle, someone just did 3500 damage to me in one turn, and it could have been more, I just died when I lost all my health in less that one round. All it took, a dispel and quaffing a chain lighting potion. Instant Kill. If someone can do that, Titans are in no way Broken. And I know people want to use the exploting vuln. WTF. 3500 damage in 3 seconds. My suggestion. Just make brewing chain lighting impossible. It takes no lag, and it can kill a titan in about 3 seconds. Yeah, that is fair.
>
> Emtae
Oh, get OVER yourself. You… you cast spell deflection on your OWN MOUNT. Chain lightning hits everything in the room. You were just unlucky enough to have most, if not all, of the bolts bounce off your mount and hit you. So, if anyone is to blame for getting not one dose of chain lightning, but two, it is YOU. So don't come crying to us. It was solely your fault. Had you not put spell deflection on your mount, you'd likely would have survived the spell and would have likely beaten the crap out of your opponent.
-
As far as Lich go…
Spirit rack is fine. It's not too weak. I use it fairly often myself and haven't noticed any problems.
The fire vuln coupled with the blunt vuln does seem like a bit much, and it does seem like I get owned by people half my level a bit too often. But hey who knows, maybe I just suck :P
I do agree with Bael though. Both fire and blunt are extremely common. HOWEVER. Let's look at their resists etc...
Immune: charm cold lightning kill
Resist: piercing slashing poison
Racial Affects: pass_door
Not too freakin shabby. Also, we SUPPOSEDLY get 250% normal mana regen. I'm not sure if this is currently working or not, as I don't have a non Lich of equal power to compare it to. It seems like it might go at about the same rate as my HP but I really am having a hard time telling.
Syn, could you take a look at that?
All things considered though, Lich aren't really having much trouble. Some would say they are overpowered by those immunities and things, but I think the two EASILY exploitable vulnerabilities makes it fair.
-
I think Liches are fun as hell. Granted like I said before, better have some high hp armors on. A person using a lich in the correct maner, can do some serious damage. If any one noticed, liches aren't made for rushing in, swords flailing, hacking off heads at will. They use their firsts mainly, and notice that high amount of mana they posses. They can cast spells for an entire battle and shouldn't (they still can i suppose) run out of mana. The right person using a lich should be very lethal in battle, if they use what they got right. As far as vulns, every ones got them, just need to use your enemies too.
Emtae
-
This is all fine and dandy, but it seems everyone is forgetting that the races/classes/stats/etc weren't pulled directly from the D&D Players Handbook, or taken from whatever book/tv/movie series you're so fond of. While Sentience has kept true to most of the more commonly used traits and idiosyncrasies, keep in mind that just because it doesn't fit the profile you approve of doesn't make it wrong.
With that said: Ith has a wonderful point, being that races are gauged around humans. While Myth said every race has a racial advantage to humans, it is my belief that humans should be able to exploit every weakness just as easily. My argument behind this is: In every story, book, movie, universe, what-have-you with multiple races involved, 97% of them express humans as having the ability to overcome the odds and become if not the greatest, then one of the best in nearly every category. It is understood that humans have the greatest potential of all races, and though our greatest disadvantage is that we have no advantage, our ability to expolit weaknesses and vulerabilties makes us a force to be reckoned with.
-
People have been talking about a necessary way to defend against bard music. I have an idea. A spell called defness. No idea what class would get it. Here's how it would work though. It wouldn't last more than maybe one tick. You would not be able to hear the music to have it affect you. Also, here's the drawback. For the duration, aside from maybe tells,cts and immortal gossips/oocs, you would not see channels or says etc. Also you would not be able to see your opponent, or anyone else, cast spells. You would see the spells in action, just not see them "speaking the words of the spell" I know the idea could use polishing, but whaddya think?
-
put it in the ideas forum? :P
