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Cure poison for sith bites. Its really that simple. If you think that is to simple and negates the usefulness of it, keep in mind you have to waste an action casting cure poison, while also worrying about dispel, blind, and counterspell, and whatever else your opponenet is throwing at you.
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quick lesson on siths: the bite skill=the kick skill There really is no difference.That is why i suggested a move cost for it. The other thing is it takes forever to go off. I don't foresee anyone casting a spell at the same time.
Toxins skill=The sith's ace in the hole. The 4 toxins a sith can use all reflect spells (small differances in some cases). In my case 3 of the 4 toxins when the effect does finally go through it lasts for maybe 2 rounds. the Toxins are weakness=minus to str, neurotoxin=minus to int, paralyze=web, and red's favorite venom=sleep. The other things about the 4 toxins the amount of time from the toxin bite to effect taking hold is so veralbe it's sick. The least amount of time i've had from toxin bite to effect was four rounds. The longest amount of time was it didn't take effect. The main reason i'm sugesting a mana cost for the toxins is they have a spell like effect.
Finally, i do NOT sugest the spit posion or blind for the siths. That would make them as broken as the vampires and totaly unfair.
Thanks again
Crawley
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Well, I wasn't gonna say much, but got a couple corrections.
* Weakness is Fatigue + Weaken. Drops enemy mv by some amount, and strength is lowered by 5.
* Neurotoxin is, until spells get linked to intelligence, the most worthless of the bunch, but it lowers target intelligence by 5.
* Paralyze is a pretty good one, as it goes beyond the web spell. Paralyze stops all target actions, including casting and speaking. This one is like the vampire bite's paroxysm. Pardon me if I spelled that one wrong, leeches and fiends.
* Venom is, as has been said, the Sith big attack/defense. It doesn't always land, and as other sith can point to, is something of a gamble to use, as is any toxin.
I'd have to agree with a movement cost, though I'd also like to see one on tail kick as well. Right now, neither of these skills has any cost associated. As far as a 'cure' for venom goes, well, that one is supposed to be being worked on, so we'll have to wait for an update to hear about that. For spitting/blinding, the last I knew was that it would be one of the remort skills for Naga, so I'd leave it there, personally.
I'd like to see some sort of faster biting skill, just to help my own chances, but as I see it, that's all handled by bite itself right now. It would be good to represent the striking snake thing, but I'm not sure if it would help to balance the race just yet.
As far as cure poison alone curing any toxins just fine, that I'm against, as it would pretty much negate the use of toxins at all for anyone who has taken a cleric class. I'm not sure if Syn has put in the slight resist to toxins that remorts should naturally have yet or not, so I'll leave that issue up to a coder to answer. Just thought I would post and clear up what I'm aware of.
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As has been pointed out, Cure Poison, would not "negate" the usefulness as it takes an action to cast, and hence benefits the sith.
Also as I pointed out at this point Cure Poison would have no effect on sleep venom for simple fact there is no effect to cure, untill it takes hold, and once u are asleep u cant cast. So it would require something new, some sort of "poisoning" effect taking place as soon as bite was injected.
Also, I keep hearing of bite not being reliable etc, etc, well it has been my experience, in every fight, where it has been attempted against me by a sith of any level, it has been effective. So I dont by it not being affective, at least not vs players, maybe vs mobs it is low chance, but not players.
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Every sith that's fought me has failed it. Lukus has bitten me many times, and he either misses, or i shake it off and continue to beat him down :P
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Well something is messed up then Mythology, maybe in making Vamps not immune to sith toxins, the code took it as us being vuln or something, cuz it seems just the opposite with me.
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Not likely. It's just more difficult to PK stronger characters knowing you have a weakness. If you disreguard you have a weakness and go straight for the kill, you win.
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My take on the sith toxins is a little bit different, but hey, might as well throw it out. I, like Lukus, agree with the thought of putting in a movement cost of some kind. Same goes for tail kick.
As for why it seems to hit certain people more than others, I can't really say. My guess would point to an unlisted coded vulnerability or something of that nature. Perhaps even a bug. It's almost as if it is different for each person. When I actually work up the courage to fight Lukus once in a while, sometimes the bite lands, and sometimes it doesn't. (And if it doesn't, he gets a severe incinerating, hehe..)
As a last couple of thoughts, the racial -10AC or whatever it may be for dracons shouldn't be applied to sith. Difference in scales, you see. Sith scales being soft, (hence the piercing vuln) and dracon scales being hard. Also.. Neurotoxin? Yes, lets kill them with stupidity!
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I will say that I have noticed that some mobs are more affected by one type of toxin over the others. I do have to say on the other hand, i haven't done much player vs. player to really test this out. I also have a feeling that sith's aren't immune to sith toxins eather. This is something that i'm going to test out very soon.
Thanks
Crawley
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Cure poison working with a full chance would negate the use of the toxins. Cure poison is cast almost immediately, while toxins, as Crawley said, take atleast 4 rounds to take hold. That gives the victim 4 rounds to cast cure poison.
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Except as I have pointed out, there is no poison to cure, till it takes hold. There is no effect to cure. :)
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Not sure what this comment is going to have on Sith Toxin's but, what the hell.
First off, trying to argue with someone who's sith is pointless. They don't want to lose it because it is their only real way of winning. I know they are simple to beat. Granted they are tougher than some races, but still aren't that difficult to take on if fighting them correctly. And the same goes for people that are 120's and getting owned because one successful sleep bite wins the battle. So I thought of an idea about sith Toxins.
Sleep toxin. Like black Jack, except you don't have to be in sneak or, if need be, they have to be in sneak. You can't use the bite durring battle however. It will take about 4 rounds to take affect if successful. Calm won't counter it, but if in frenzy or beserk, the idea of being enraged will slow its affects down to say 6 turns or so. Calm will actually speed it up to about 3\. If both are in affect, the speed change cancels the time change of the affects. If the player is weaker, like 25% hp, the bite will almost be succesful. If the player is like 90 to 100%, the bite isn't going to be as lucky. But seeing as how the bite will take 4 rounds to take affect, it will allow a player to flee to safty if needed.
Paralize, mmm I say get rid of it all together, unless the sith is lagged about close to the amount of rounds the biten person is. It can be a rather succesful attack as well. So an example of lag, if player is bitten, they are paralized for lets say 4 rounds, the sith is lagged for 3\. Siths can just bite, energy drain, and bite, making it damn near impossible to kill them.
The other bites.. well they are NEVER used because why use them when you can just sleep slit ever time?
A new skill I was thinking about would be encoil. A sith only skill that would allow the sith to capture their victems. If I am correct, they are snake like, and snakes usually wrap up their victoms and crush them. Well with this skill, they can wrap them up, and then they can't flee. This skill can also do a little damage ever second, but drain a large portion of movement. And the encoil can run out at like 40% movement left or lower depending on the idea. This would make a wonderful trade off for the sleep toxin attack. If they can sneak up on you, and bite you, then you can chase them down when they flee and encoil them, hey, you may just get an honorable pk/cpk, and people will just have to admit, that they weren't paying enough attention and got screwed.
So that's about it, lets keep an open mind on it and not just say no because your a sith, or a sith is in your church etc. I am pretty sure they are going to get it changed, I figured this was a good change. It still makes them very leathal, and still a little cheap because their isn't a way to counter the bite, and I still wonder if the calm thing should work, seeing as in an arena battle, someone can spam bite, like many spam black jack. And seeing as there isn't a way to counter bite, and if in calm, you can sleep really fast, and if not in calm, they can just black jack. That is why I think the arena system should be like the achaeus arena. So people have to walk up on one another.
Well, I hope that people actually have some good comments on this idea.
Emtae
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So, as a completely non-Sith player, and a person who generally remains neutral in these conversations, I'm going to throw in my own critical opinions to these proposed changes. (Ooh, I sound so fancy and formal :D)
> Granted they are tougher than some races, but still aren't that difficult to take on if fighting them correctly.
So, um.. If they're not difficult to beat, why would we weaken them? Just curious.
> Sleep toxin. Like black Jack, except you don't have to be in sneak or, if need be, they have to be in sneak. You can't use the bite durring battle however. It will take about 4 rounds to take affect if successful.
Okay, so.. You want to make an extremely weak and virtually useless version of blackjack? That makes things slightly redundant. I certainly do not understand the purpose of this skill, considering that any Sith would have blackjack; both assassin and rogue, the two subclasses from which Sith have the ability to choose, have the blackjack skill. Why would someone ever use this?
> Calm won't counter it, but if in frenzy or beserk, the idea of being enraged will slow its affects down to say 6 turns or so. Calm will actually speed it up to about 3\. If both are in affect, the speed change cancels the time change of the affects.
Just as a note.. Wouldn't frenzy logically speed it up? Being in a state of frenzy would cause a greater rate of blood flow and the toxin would reach the body more quickly, would it not?
I actually just checked some first aid sites because I was really unsure, and it does say "Keep the person calm, reassuring them that bites can be effectively treated in an emergency room. Restrict movement, and keep the affected area below heart level to reduce the flow of venom.". It's good to know I learned something in Biology, ahaha.
I'm not sure about this encoil idea.. The idea of having a skill that would restrict movement, inflict damage, and keep the target from fleeing seems a little too powerful to me. It seems like it would be worse than the sleep bite itself!
Although I may not be in favour of these proposed changes, I do indeed support a cure for sith toxins. However, they are meant to be dangerous, and don't take effect right on impact. Thus, I don't believe a simple cure poison should negate all affects of the toxin immediately. Possibly with increased failure rate due to the strength of the toxin, or something to that effect, it would make sense.
Perhaps I'm underestimating the Sith race. I'm aware that they have these toxin abilities, and yes, they need some sort of antidote, which the immortals are most likely aware of and working on, considering the amount of complaints on the matter. But these changes are too drastic, in my opinion, and will only make Sith into a race with weak skills and horrible vulnerabilities. Like Emtae said, they can be beaten if the opponent knows what they're doing. It's really like any other race; each have their strengths and vulnerabilities. It's all dependent upon the people playing and their approach to the battle. Many other races can be quite lethal if played skillfully, such as Titans and Draconians. So basically, I think that if a cure for toxins is implemented, and I anticipate it will be, then there really will be no need to change the Sith's abilities for the worse.
Tah dah, done now.
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Riane, i couldnt have said it better myself :)
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> Paralize, mmm I say get rid of it all together, unless the sith is lagged about close to the amount of rounds the biten person is. It can be a rather succesful attack as well. So an example of lag, if player is bitten, they are paralized for lets say 4 rounds, the sith is lagged for 3\. Siths can just bite, energy drain, and bite, making it damn near impossible to kill them.
So, lemme get this straight. Either get rid of a toxin or nerf it to the point where they will never use it? Brilliant…. just brilliant! Spoken like someone that doesn't play a sith. Sith's can't just bite and do something too quickly. There's the lovely bite lag. Then there's the toxin levels to contend with that deplete with each use of the toxin, and take time to regenerate. Oh, and don't forget the time it takes for the toxin to take affect, if it does at all.
> The other bites.. well they are NEVER used because why use them when you can just sleep slit ever time?
Again, spoken like someone that doesn't play a sith.
So, before you start talking about how to weaken a race, PLAY ONE FIRST! Then you will see it's a skillful PLAYER using their CHARACTER to the best of their abilities.
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Sleep toxin should only work if using it to initiate combat, that's about the only thing i have to say. leave the fucking sith alone after that. they suck almost as bad as minotaurs.
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I didn't think I would stir things up this badly. I just wanted the Sith to have a small power down. I guess i didn't really think that many people had that big of a problem with the Venom Toxin (sleep). I'll be honest, I use the venom toxin for 2 things killing players and big mobs for their eq. The venom toxin is unfair for the sith, i'll admit that. I'm perfectly willing to lose the venom toxin if it ment that the other races were nerfed too. The biggest problem we have is some of the races have too big of an ace in the hole. To be realistic all the races need to be tweaked. most need to be tweaked down.
1-remove the Sith's venom toxin
2-Create a spell for Paladins, Monks and Wizards (just throwing monks in because i think it makes sense) that can see through the Vampire's shape skill (I mean you need a quest item to see through it, That's rediculus)
3-Dwarves need somekind of weakness, i mean crap, they get all those resistances and drowning?
4-humans need something thats good, maybe an extra prac every level
5-each race should have a 9000 point base for hp, mp, and mv (meaning that those 3 should have 9000 points between them) As it stands Vampires have 750 point over that the sith and the dwarves are also over the 9000 point cap. Then there are other races that are under it, like minotars, they are 650 points below it.
6-the Slayers have holy wrath, i think it should be reduced to 15=20% extra damage, but make it where it can affect anything they face. After all, the slayer is suposed to be the holy warrior, if a slayer is fighting it, then that means it needs to die in the eyes of the gods (or make an attack skill like kick). Also, a Slayer should get a racial ablity to see though a vamp's shape skill. After all they were made to kill vampires.
7-Dracons should lose Acid breath. Nothing has that as a weakness and it is another attack that i think they don't need. Hell, i'd almost be willing to argue that they sould lose the gas breath, but Green dragons in d&d have it
The main thing i want to see happen is for the playing ground to level out. As it currently stands some races are just flat out better than the others. I belive that most of the races NEED to be nerfed. A few NEED to be strengthed. After all how many people play humans beyond level 60\. I want the game to be fair, which means most of us get screwed. In the end it will become for fun for all of us. Most people won't like the idea of the character they have worked so hard on get nerfed. But when it happens to everyone then it's balanced. Before anyone thinks i'm attacking them and think they are overpowered remember, i suggested getting rid of the Sith's venom toxin (the sleep toxin), but i think others should lose thier attacks and/or ablitys to.
Thanks
Crawley
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Thank you Myth. That is pretty much been my take on it from day one of the controversy.
That or have an effective block or cure of it. Every other skill/spell in the game A) has something that out and out blocks it from working or B) Has a readily available (non-lucky timing) cure or C) can only be used before combat starts.
In Case of A and B those can be readily countered/dispelled. But there also is chance to re-instate them.
So IMHO, Sith Bite (at least the sleep one) needs A or B or C.
ie
Blackjack has C and A
Sleep has C
Kill has A
Poison, Blind, Web etc all have B (if not a Cure spell for it then the all purpose dispel)
Even Silence if prepared with potions has B. (or if a bard but that is another subject.
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Crawley in general I would agree with you, but,
That true sight spell should be limited only to being in same room with them. And the slayer skill/spell should also be given to vamps as it can be necesarry to see thru slayer shift as well. Though I believe the shift was given to the slayer to account for there anti-vamp ways.
As far as humans? They have nothing and need nothing, they are the base the starting point from which all other races resistances, vulnerabilities +'s and -'s are calculated from. What might be good for them would be the abilitiy to split class (not sure how it would work or be coded), but would allow them to maybe pick and choose a certain # of skills/spells from the sub-classes they were not at the cost of say maybe max % on it and maybe 1 other skill/spell from their chosen subclass being limited to 90%.. Just a rough idea but enought to see where it could go.
Oh and wanted to add, shape in no way helps in actual pk battle. It only helps to catch those unaware and to avoid pk when we want to. And even shaped, someone who is alert and knowledgable will know that it is a shaped vampire and not the mob.
And more I think about it, I would be more in favor of the true sight spell being a remort class, maybe archmage and/or illusionist, adept and or alchemist and ninja and/ or warlord.. Would be the choices that would make sense to me (not necessarily all of them but that give ideas and choices of each remort class.
Dwarfs, that is a tough one, hard to come up with an approprieate weakness for them that could be used against them. Maybe water based spells in general doing more damage, of course then we would need the spells but like i said that is a hard one.
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Red, i aggree with you for the most part. with the exception of the true sight spell being remort only.
